Evidence of meeting #50 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-32.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lise Lebel  President, Fondation Katherine Beaulieu
Sue O'Sullivan  Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime
Sheldon Kennedy  Board Member, Sheldon Kennedy Child Advocacy Centre
Tracy O'Hearn  Executive Director, Pauktuutit Inuit Women of Canada
Alyssa Flaherty-Spence  Member, Board of Directors, Pauktuutit Inuit Women of Canada
Jonathan Denis  Minister of Justice and Solicitor General, Ministry of Justice and Solicitor General, Government of Alberta

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Pauktuutit Inuit Women of Canada

Tracy O'Hearn

Thank you. I appreciate the question.

The point I wanted to add earlier is that at the present time Pauktuutit does not have a working relationship with Justice Canada or with Public Safety Canada, and we were not able to consult.

Pauktuutit is one organization, but it does have a mandate from Inuit women to be a representative in these sorts of discussions. I was mindful this morning that we are appearing before you in the midst of a really meaningful national discussion about violence against women. So no, there must be unique application of this.

As I mentioned earlier, there really is a pervasive lack of even basic knowledge about what the rights of victims are.

I'll stop there for now. Thank you.

5 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

My last question, quickly, is for Sue O'Sullivan.

What role do you see for the ombudsman of victims? I must say, I tried to get you more of a budget from the minister when he came in front of the committee. But seriously, what role do you see the ombudsman of victims playing in the application of this bill?

5 p.m.

Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime

Sue O'Sullivan

We have our mandate that's been clearly defined in the OIC. As you know, under this bill all federal departments will be required to have an internal complaint system. One of the issues is that we're going to have to wait to see how those complaint systems are, because part of my mandate is that victims of crime can contact our office in relation to issues around federal programming policies, and that won't change. But we have to see how that relationship is going to work now that there are the internal complaint systems.

Part of my comments was about the ability to have the authority to demand documents. Right now we have excellent open lines of communication with the federal agencies that we deal with. With the internal complaint systems they're developing, I don't know how that's going to look. We're going to have to monitor that and look at how that relationship will develop. But we're going to continue to use the voice of our office to amplify the voice of victims on many of these issues.

I realize that when there is new legislation, evaluation is going to have to be a joint effort among the provinces and territories and the federal government. Because at the end of the day, we need to know if this bill is making a difference.

5 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Yes, because I was a bit afraid when I heard the minister.... If this charter is supposed to be national, you cannot have a charter that is applied a certain way in Alberta, a different way in Quebec, a different.... We're one country. But I understand that we have to be realistic, maybe to the point of—

5 p.m.

Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime

Sue O'Sullivan

One of the issues we've seen in Canada, as you've just identified, is that there is a huge variability as to what access you have. I would just build on some of Tracy's comments, because you can't exercise a right unless you know you have that right. I think that's reflected in the minister's comments as well.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

The minister has his hand up.

5 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Yes, for sure. Maybe I didn't understand the translation or—

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Minister, do you also want to answer this question? The NDP have a—

5 p.m.

Minister of Justice and Solicitor General, Ministry of Justice and Solicitor General, Government of Alberta

Jonathan Denis

Thank you very much, Chair. There is one thing I just want to clarify.

In no way were we suggesting that one province should be treated differently from the other; rather, that there should be a six-month, and not 90-day, period in which to implement everything in this bill.

If you recall, many of our victims services organizations—and we've seen some of them today—are non-profit groups, staffed by volunteers. We want to ensure, as the last speaker said, that they're aware of what rights and obligations are available so they can adequately serve victims, and with respect, six months is not a long period of time to be asking for.

5 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

It's definitely not long, and I think it will take more than six months, to be quite frank.

November 4th, 2014 / 5 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I am going to follow on from my colleague.

My thanks to all the witnesses for their powerful comments. They are much appreciated.

I have only a minute so I'm going to try to keep it very brief.

The bill speaks to community an awful lot, and I think you were able to raise questions regarding the stresses that communities are already feeling from being remote and isolated. The victims and the perpetrators are often in the same community. Is there anything in the bill that's going to make it easier for communities to deal with the supposed powers that are going to be brought forward for the victims to exercise?

5 p.m.

Executive Director, Pauktuutit Inuit Women of Canada

Tracy O'Hearn

We haven't had the capacity or the resources to do a thorough analysis of the bill. I would say that without adequate resources, I don't see how whatever enhanced protections there may be can be implemented in remote communities that lack even basic services and resources.

5 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I think that's time, right?

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

That's about time.

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questions are from the Conservative Party.

Mr. Goguen, go ahead, please.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to all the witnesses. With the diversity of views they have expressed, their testimony is helping and guiding us as we study the bill.

I thank you for all your testimony and your diversity of ideas. Certainly the whole idea is to improve the bill.

My first question is for Ms. O'Sullivan. I've never seen a panel as Irish as this one.

I don't know, Madame Lebel, how you escaped the furor of the four-leafed clover, but in any event....

The Ministry of Justice held some extensive consultations, as you know, and what we heard from victims was that they wanted more protection; they definitely wanted more information; they wanted to be treated with respect; and they wanted to be treated with dignity. But they also expressed a lot of concern regarding delays. Delays do not help victims; there's no question about that. The dockets are loaded and time passes very quickly, particularly for a victim who's trying to heal.

That's another thing the witnesses told us, that basically the longer the procedures go on, the harder it is to close the book and the harder it is to start the healing process.

You mentioned in your testimony that there will be an internal complaints system for breaches of a victim's rights. Certainly that has to evolve. We don't know exactly where it will lead.

You also seemed to suggest that you wanted some sort of a system in which, in the case of a breach, the judge could be approached and spoken to by the victim. It seems that would inherently cause delays. I'll take you through a scenario: the investigation is going on; we've done the preliminary hearing; the victim believes there's a breach; the judge is setting the time, the date, and the place for the trial; the victim wants to raise some sort of a breach; and a special hearing takes place. So instead of the trial going forth, the special hearing trumps this and more time passes before the trier of fact gets to see what's going on in the case. What happens if, in the special decision, following a hearing of the victim's arguments on the breach, the victim doesn't like the decision? Is there an appeal? How long does this go forth before ultimately the trial is held instead of dealing with some sort of complaint on the victim's right before the judge rather than an internal system?

I just see it being another time factor of delay.

5:05 p.m.

Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime

Sue O'Sullivan

I have to agree with you, of course, that victims also want a speedy trial. They want to ensure that the criminal justice system goes ahead. There have been many reports, including the recent access to justice report, about the reasons for those delays. Many have to do with adjournments and issues like that.

We looked at the United States, which very much takes the approach of allowing legal representation for victims of crime.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

But they have diverse criminal law systems, don't they? There are as many criminal law systems in the States as there are states, are there not?

5:05 p.m.

Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime

Sue O'Sullivan

No. Each state can make constitutional law at the state level, so over 30 states have victims' rights in their constitution. I'll speak about eight states that certainly have had standing for victims.

When I say “standing”, again, I want to be clear. I'm not talking about party status. I'm talking about their very limited standing or ability to exercise their rights.

We've talked to victims' rights lawyers in the United States. In particular there is the National Crime Victim Law Institute out of Oregon, of which Meg Garvin is the executive director. I asked her about this, because Oregon has had limited standing for victims since 2008, and she is aware of one delay for a sentencing since 2008. Since then, she says, because that delay happened once, the participants in the criminal justice system now ensure that doesn't happen.

We also spoke to groups of victims' rights lawyers in Washington. They said that when victims have the right to that legal representation, whatever happens takes place ahead of the pre-trial and ahead of the trial. They can meet with the victims, ascertain what their safety and security issues are, ascertain the system with their victim impact statement, and state any other concerns they have around their rights. In actual fact both of them talk about the ability to actually expedite the process—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

So the hearing on the breach is all pre-trial?

5:05 p.m.

Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime

Sue O'Sullivan

What they're doing basically is calling it a notice of appearance, whereby they'll file a notice of appearance and ask for an assertion of rights. This helps to preserve victims' rights from the beginning, as opposed to waiting until these have been contravened. They also file proactive pre-emptive motions. It helps to preserve the record of proceedings. Most of this occurs pre-trial to ensure that rights can be assessed during trial.

So when we talk about this, again, it's specific to victims' rights. We already set the precedent in 1988 when we allowed victims to make victim impact statements. Now a judge must consider restitution. So, really, what we're left with is that this bill says that a victim has a right to convey their views and have them considered. What we're saying is that one example would be a bail hearing where you have a right to have your safety and security concerns taken into account, but there's no mechanism for me to address the court and do that. So if in fact I had legal representation, which we allow—there already are hearings, as you are well aware.... For a sexual assault victim, there will be a hearing in regard to production of records and they have a right to have legal representation at that.

I asked Oregon specifically if this had happened in that state because they have a right to be notified about a bail hearing on that. What happened in that situation, which they say is a rare one, where the victim was not notified about the bail hearing and didn't have that opportunity, is that the accused remained in the community and a second hearing was called, with the accused again remaining in the community during this, when in fact then there was a determination. In many cases the offender remains in the community, but it's an opportunity for them to have their voice heard, but that this is more of a rare occurrence.

The second issue where we see that the victim's voice needs to be heard is in the plea bargain. Again, the way the bill is written, it says that a victim for serious injury or murder.... I've talked to crown attorneys across this country as well—and again, I'm reflecting some of the unique circumstances—and many crowns will tell you that they already do that, that as a matter of fact they already meet with the victim. So what we're saying is that let's talk about consistency. If you have a right to be heard, and most crowns are doing it as practice, then they should make sure that's a consistent practice. The right is to be heard. We're not suggesting a veto power for victims in relation to that.

Why is this so important? It's because we know about procedural fairness and how people are treated within the criminal justice system. If a victim feels they've been treated fairly, they are more satisfied with the criminal justice system. If they're treated with respect and dignity and are given an opportunity to participate, they have a higher level of confidence in the criminal justice system.

So we're talking about two extra situations where they can have that advice, and what we're hearing from people who exercise this is that it could actually expedite the system, because it just makes sense. We often look at it through the lens of it's just going to cause delays. If you know ahead of time what your rights are and you have assistance in doing a victim impact statement, and you can make sure that your lawyer is talking to the crown attorney to tell them what your safety and security concerns are, at the end of the day at a bail hearing the judge has the final say, but they'll have the information upon which to make that decision.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

The way you're—

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Five more minutes.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

The way you're describing it, it almost seems to run in tandem or in parallel with it. Okay, so it's not within the act.

What about the prospect of the victim addressing the judge on the plea bargain? I think you've mentioned that in your recommendations, have you not?

5:10 p.m.

Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime

Sue O'Sullivan

We're talking about the victim having an opportunity to speak to the crown attorney.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Just to the attorney, not to the judge?