Justice Committee on Nov. 18th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is Madame Boivin from the New Democratic Party.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I will stay a bit on that trend, because I think there are two very important things for victims. To feel at ease to report is one major point, in my opinion.

When I look at the statistics in your report, Professor Waller, that's one thing. I'm from Quebec, and I'm a bit surprised by what you're saying. I know we have some type of support to victims.

Nevertheless, I do not think Ms. Mallet would necessarily say that support is so extraordinary in Quebec that people can claim that victims are better treated there.

We also heard from some experts who deal with victims on a day-to-day basis that each province had their system for protecting victims or supporting victims. My colleagues might correct me, but I think I heard that Manitoba, or one province in the west, had a pretty good system, a bit better than others, but I don't want to say who or what is better.

On the 31% statistic that you mention here, the percentage of victimization par crime rapporté, it's different types of crimes, I suspect. It's not necessarily all sexual aggression. It could be theft. Or is it a specific type of crime?

[Dr. Irvin Waller]

The statistics in both the graphs you're looking at are taken from the Statistics Canada general social survey. These give you information on assaults and robberies. There is not very good information on sexual assaults, but it is included there. They also give you information on very high-frequency crimes such as break-ins and car thefts.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Am I correct in assuming that the reporting of sex crimes is even lower than that statistic of 30%?

[Dr. Irvin Waller]

Absolutely. Sorry; I had only so much space. The same survey shows that less than 10% of victims of sexual assault report it to the police in Canada. We don't have this between different provinces.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Ms. Campbell, you deal with those types of victims through your association. I'm trying to find out how we can make victims feel at ease with the system for reporting. In your opinion, what would be the number one factor that would make a victim feel at ease to report?

[Ellen Campbell]

First of all, I have to tell you that you have no idea how just seeing that you are doing this victims bill of rights is affecting the community. I know there are a lot of problems with how we're going to make it work, but just doing that, you have no idea. That alone is going to encourage people to come forward. I feel there's a disconnect with regard to the amount of support that's out there, and maybe it is the federal ombudsman's office that will be able to pull all of this together. I know when I sit with somebody, they need a lot of ongoing support.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Do you agree that we'll need to educate a lot after the passage of the bill and that the success of the bill will depend on getting into the provinces and making sure that everybody knows that it exists, that's it's available, that it's a right they have, and that there are different rights that they have, and also so the courts and the judges know what type of role they have? Sometimes they have to check with the crown attorney to see if they have checked with the victim to see if they're okay with something and they have taken reasonable measures to make sure they're informed of what's happening. I think it's going to be a key to its success.

[Ellen Campbell]

Absolutely, and again that's going to cost some money.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

We agree on that. I'm NDP and we like to spend. So we will spend it next year.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I was just waiting for the zinger, guys. Don't get yourself too excited. I already said that I would give so much more leeway to make sure that victims were treated fairly.

Thank you for your comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our final questioner for this afternoon is Mr. Seeback from the Conservative Party.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'm just so thrown off by Madame Boivin's candour on enjoying spending.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

If it's on victims, then any time, my friend.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Mr. Waller, I wanted to talk to you, because you were mentioning the 2004 U.S. Congress's Crime Victims' Rights Act, which I had not heard of, so that was interesting for me. Are there things in that bill that you think are not in the legislation we have before us today? Are there significant differences between the two? Are you able to give me any idea on that?

[Dr. Irvin Waller]

Yes, there are very big differences, so I think there are things you could learn from that piece of legislation.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Do you have a specific example?

[Dr. Irvin Waller]

The one that I focus on more than anything is the importance of the General Accounting Office being involved in seeing how it's implemented. They've had this for a number of years now, so there is feedback to the police, feedback to prosecutors, and feedback to judges. It really is a cornerstone that is gradually improving the way victims are treated at the federal level. There are six items in it. Restitution is one of them. I'm sure information is one of them. It gives more standing than the one here does. I actually have a comparison in the textbook that's coming out. I could supply it to you, but I just don't have it in my head.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

What body do you think would be appropriate to do a review of this legislation? Do you think that would be something Parliament should look at in the future, or would you ask the ombudsman to take on a review of that nature? Where would you see that happening?

[Dr. Irvin Waller]

Well, I'm a fan of the ombudsman, as you've heard. I think it's one of the best things your government has done for Canada and to put us on the world map, in terms of victims.

I think you have to require Statistics Canada to collect data around this. I think you also have to look at the role, possibly, of the Auditor General. I'm not quite sure what the division would be.

I think that if you look at the U.S. legislation, you will see it is built in there, and that's what's so important. It really does become a living way of improving what's going on.

If you also look at the European framework in 2001, which was a good framework, you will see the requirement for independent evaluation. The independent evaluation was done by an institute on victimology—and I'm too old to run one of those myself, but I would like to see one in this country—and the various victim assistance groups. It was their recommendations that led to this new directive, which sets minimal standards all the way across the European Union and has money from the European Union to get it implemented.

It's incredibly important that there be more money than has been proposed so far to help this be implemented and be evaluated. Also, I would like to see more money going into actually preventing victimization, into bringing those straight lines about the rates of general victimization down, and saving money, by the way.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I'm reading from your review. You say the bill should be amended to provide gradually increased expenditures to 10%. How do you arrive at that number? How do you see those moneys being spent to support victims? The provinces are the ones that actually fund victim services, so how would you see that?

[Dr. Irvin Waller]

Well, two parliamentary committees in the 1990s recommended that 5% of federal money should be spent on prevention, so that's where 5% comes from. The other 5% comes from an analysis that I've done in my book of what it would cost to implement the sorts of things you're talking about. Of that $21 billion, I don't recall exactly what the federal government spends, but it's around $6 billion, so 10% of that is not such a huge amount. I'm talking about moving gradually up to 2020, so that you don't get inflation and so that you do actually ensure through evaluation that this will go to where it's needed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very, very much to the panel today for their presentations.

I also want to thank my colleagues around the table for their cooperation on timing. We all had an opportunity to ask questions.

What will happen now, ladies and gentlemen and members of the committee, is that as you know, we've scheduled next Tuesday for clause-by-clause study. Any amendments are required by the clerk, hopefully by Friday at noon, so the administrative clerks can look at them to see if there's anything that isn't legally able to be put forward as an amendment. Then we will do clause-by-clause study next Tuesday.

For Thursday, you should make sure you check your e-mail, because the questions that were asked about the miscellaneous amendments piece, which we're going to deal with first of all on Thursday, was sent to you this afternoon. All the questions that were asked were answered. Whether you like the answers or not, the answers are there.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I didn't—