Evidence of meeting #59 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carole Morency  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Peter Henschel  Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Joe Oliver  Assistant Commissioner, Technical Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Nathalie Levman  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Kathy Thompson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Community Safety and Countering Crime Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Angela Connidis  Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Matthias Villetorte  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for being here.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. It's meeting number 59. We are televised today.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, November 24, 2014, we're going to discuss Bill C-26, an act to amend the Criminal Code, the Canada Evidence Act and the Sex Offender Information Registration Act, to enact the high risk child sex offender database act and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Ladies and gentlemen, just so you know, we have two ministers with us. We have the Minister of Justice, Mr. MacKay, and the Minister of Public Safety, Mr. Blaney. They're both going to give opening statements. Then we'll go to discussion rounds. Before we go to the second hour with officials, we need approval for the subcommittee on agenda, to discuss the rest of the meetings we'll have on this particular topic.

Without further ado, I want to call on the Minister of Justice, Minister MacKay, for his opening remarks.

3:30 p.m.

Central Nova Nova Scotia

Conservative

Peter MacKay ConservativeMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Thank you very much, Chair.

Colleagues, I am pleased to be before you here at the justice committee to discuss Bill C-26, the tougher penalties for child predators act. This is my 51st appearance before committee.

This particular bill and its proposed amendments seek to ensure that child sexual offenders are held accountable for the horrific crimes they commit against the most vulnerable and valuable members of our society, namely children. This bill proposes to achieve this important goal through a range of different measures. What we're attempting to do here, of course, is bring forward legislation that further supports our government's effort to protect vulnerable members of society.

This bill proposes to achieve this important goal through a range of different measures, which include amendments to the Criminal Code, the Sex Offender Information and Registration Act, as well as the creation of a high-risk child sex offender database.

I'm here with various departmental officials as well as the Minister of Public Safety, Steven Blaney, who shares responsibility for this legislation and in particular for the amendments that will result in a new database. I'll let Minister Blaney speak to those sections of this bill. The objective though, to be clear, is one which all parliamentarians should support. This is clearly a very non-partisan issue, yet some have questioned the necessity for the proposed amendments before us. I want to address some of those questions.

These amendments are necessary because of the sad reality that the instance of child sexual offences continues to rise. In 2013 police reported that sexual offending against children had actually increased again, this time by 6% in 2012 and 2011. Each calendar year saw a 3% increase. As Statistics Canada noted, sexual violations against children was one of the few categories of violent offences in Canada to increase in 2013. This comes from Juristat 2013, which was released in July last year. These numbers we can all agree are cause for concern. We feel compelled to reinforce our response to these serious crimes, and I believe Canadians share these concerns.

Bill C-26 better reflects the seriousness of child sexual offences by proposing to increase mandatory minimum penalties and maximum penalties for many child sexual offences. For example, this bill would ensure that maximum punishment for all hybrid sexual offences against children would be two years less a day for a summary conviction and 14 years on indictment.

In addition to increasing the penalties for making and distributing child pornography, Bill C-26 proposes to make these offences strictly indictable to better reflect their severity. Child pornography offences have devastating and long-lasting impacts on victims, particularly those that are posted on the Internet, where they can reside for someone's lifetime. We have seen in particular how this intersects with the cyber legislation and how often these types of images are used to bully young people in particular to a point where they take their own lives.

Chair and colleagues, this bill would also ensure that it would be considered an aggravating factor to commit an offence while subject to conditional sentence, order, parole, or statutory release. These are long overdue changes that will assist in preventing future offences by known or suspected child sexual offenders. Bill C-26 proposes higher penalties for those convicted of breaching supervision orders. It's our belief, and our responsibility to ensure, that supervision orders imposed on these offenders once they are released into the community are actually observed, and that breaches of conditions imposed to protect children result in serious consequences. The types of conditions, as we know, are that there be no contact, that a person stay away from a certain household, and that there be certain conditions around possession of weapons, alcohol, or drugs.

Those are the types of conditions, Mr. Chair, which, if breached, can and often do result in further offences. Therefore, to achieve that objective, Bill C-26 proposes to increase the maximum penalties for breaches of prohibition orders under section 161, probation orders found in section 733.1, and peace bonds, sections 810 to 810.2. These types of orders often contain conditions intended to protect children, as I referenced earlier. Maximum penalties for breaches of conditions of any of these orders would be increased from six to eighteen months if proceeded by summary conviction, and from two to four years if proceeded by indictment.

Mr. Chair, our government is also committed to ending what are sometimes called sentence discounts for child sex offences. This is to ensure that we recognize each and every child and the offence that has affected their life. To that end, Bill C-26 requires courts to order in all cases that sentences imposed for child pornography offences be served consecutively to sentences imposed for other child sex offences. This bill would also ensure that offenders who sexually abuse multiple children do not receive sentence discounts just because the sentences are at the same time for the offences involving multiple victims.

Further, Mr. Chair, Bill C-26 would clarify the text found at subsection 718.3(4) of the Criminal Code, which contains the general rules regarding concurrent and consecutive sentences. Its current wording is the result of an amalgamation of rules that predate Confederation and as such, requires clarification and modification, so we are taking this opportunity to do so.

Bill C-26 also proposes to codify certain sentencing rules applicable to the imposition of concurrent and consecutive sentences. For example, one such rule provides for the imposition of concurrent sentences for offences committed as part of the same criminal transaction, also referred to as the "same event or series of events" rule.

However, courts have also acknowledged that consecutive sentences should be imposed in certain circumstances even if the offence in question was committed as part of the same series of events or separate events. This bill would recognize two of these circumstances. An offence committed while fleeing a police officer would be served consecutively to any other sentence arising out of the same series of events, and a sentence imposed for an offence committed while on bail should also be served consecutively to other sentences imposed. There is a precedent to proceed in this fashion.

Mr. Chair, Bill C-26 will also amend the Canada Evidence Act to ensure that spouses of individuals accused of child pornography offences are compellable witnesses for the crown. The testimony of an accused spouse may be required to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, such as, for example, where child pornography is found on a home computer.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair and colleagues, and just before I turn it over to Minister Blaney, our government recognizes that criminal legislation alone is an incomplete response to child sexual abuse and that the criminal justice system's response to sexual violations against children must be multipronged or holistic.

This bill, Bill C-26, forms an integral part of the overall response, but I'm particularly pleased that our government has allocated over $10 million for 21 new or enhanced child advocacy centres now to address the needs of child and youth victims of crime. I've visited a number of these centres, as I'm sure many on this committee have, to see how these centres and these programs are assisting in the recovery of victims, in particular young victims who have in many cases undergone considerable trauma as a result of sexual offences.

That is just another example of the overall response we're taking as a government. In particular, I commend all those who are working with young victims on the special needs that they require.

With that, I will turn it over to Minister Blaney.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, Minister.

Minister Blaney, the floor is yours.

February 2nd, 2015 / 3:40 p.m.

Lévis—Bellechasse Québec

Conservative

Steven Blaney ConservativeMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Thank you, Chair Wallace.

Mr. Chair, I want to thank you and the committee members for having me here today.

I am delighted to be here with my colleague, the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, to speak to the public safety component of the Tougher Penalties for Child Predators Act.

This legislation will enable our government to follow through on its promise to protect families, communities and, above all, children from pedophiles.

Let's be clear: tougher measures are needed to protect our children from sexual exploitation and abuse. As Minister MacKay indicated, while violent crime rates in Canada are trending downward, sexual violations against children are on the rise. Police reported some 4,200 incidents of sexual violations against children in 2013.

Canadians are rightfully concerned about the mobility and conduct of sexual predators who leave the country and commit sex offences abroad. We introduced the Tougher Penalties for Child Predators Act in order to address the deeply troubling reality behind that concern.

This bill comprises various elements, including measures to impose stricter obligations on registered sex offenders, in particular, those who have been convicted of committing sex offences against children or who travel abroad to engage in child sex tourism.

To complete Minister MacKay's opening remarks, I will discuss the components of the bill that will give law enforcement better tools to crack down on these despicable individuals: travel data, the database itself, and also the sharing of information between the CBSA and the RCMP.

We have already brought forward significant changes to the Sex Offender Information and Registration Act, legislation which established a national database of convicted sex offenders in Canada. Law enforcement relies on the National Sex Offender Registry, administered by the RCMP, in the prevention and investigation of sex crimes.

We currently have a database, which is only accessible at this time to law enforcement, where there are 36,000 sex offenders. Of these, nearly 25,000 have committed criminal acts against children.

Obviously, these are crimes of a sexual nature.

Currently, all registered sex offenders must report their address, their name, and the place where they work or volunteer, once a year or whenever that information changes. They are also required to report any periods of travel in Canada or abroad of seven days or more.

But in the case of international travel, the only information they have to report is their absence from the country for seven or more days and the approximate dates of their travel. They are not under any obligation to provide details on their destination, and that has to change. That is why we are here this afternoon discussing the legislative measures before you.

We have to do more to protect our children from sexual exploitation, and that responsibility starts here. That responsibility also extends beyond our borders, to children everywhere.

The tougher penalties for child predators act is important because if adopted, it would better protect children against people who want to steal their innocence for their own perverse sexual gratification. It would also hold those who commit these heinous crimes accountable for the harm they inflict on society.

For example, if a known sex offender living in Ontario wants to go to B.C. for two weeks, they must provide the address of and contact information for their destination. But, if they leave the country for two weeks, they are not subject to any rules requiring them to report where they are travelling to.

Under the legislation we are discussing today, this practice would end. The sex offender would have to provide travel details for trips outside Canada lasting seven or more days, and provide the precise dates of departure and return.

Unfortunately, sexual tourism exists. It is important to address this practice when it affects children and when it affects Canada.

The second key change this legislation will make is to close the information-sharing gap when it comes to communications between police and the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA.

Under the current legislation, the information in the registry cannot be shared with the CBSA, because the agency is not considered a police service. Under the current regime, information cannot be shared with those who control access in and out of the country.

What's more, the legislation would authorize the CBSA to collect travel information on certain sex offenders upon their return and to share that information with the people in charge of administering the registry. The bill would allow the information to flow in both directions.

Given the crucial roles of the RCMP and the CBSA in ensuring public safety, this information-sharing authority is one of the key elements in the bill that will strengthen existing legislation and hold travelling sex offenders to account.

Finally, I'm pleased to discuss a measure that Canadians, including me as a father, are very concerned about, and that is the right of victims, children and families, to know whether there is a high-risk sex offender living in their neighbourhood, and I emphasize, a high-risk sex offender living in their neighbourhood. Canadians have the right to know the character of the individuals who are near their children. If a dangerous pedophile is within arm's reach of their child, they have the right to take proper action and precautions. That is why the bill would enact the high-risk child sex offender database act, which would allow our government to create a national public database. This bill would create a public registry of high-risk sex offenders so that parents could take responsible measures to keep their children safe.

I was pleased to see nearly all-party support for this important legislation, save for the Green Party, which voted against it. I hope that members of the committee will support our plan to make sex offenders more accountable, to better protect children in Canada and abroad from sexual exploitation, and to give Canadian families access to information that would help them keep their children safe. The tougher penalties for child predators act would do just that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Ministers, thank you for your opening statements.

We'll now go to rounds of questions.

Our first questioner is Madam Boivin from the New Democratic Party.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, ministers.

Mr. MacKay, you said this was your 51st appearance before the committee. And this is your first appearance, Mr. Blaney. I hope you are going to give us the time to properly study Bill C-26, which we were very happy to have referred to the committee. I would expect that you will give the committee the time it needs to study the impact of these measures. It's an extensive piece of legislation that requires two ministers to appear before the committee. Clearly, it has a number of different consequences.

By no means do I think you want us to do a comprehensive study of the bill, despite the fact that it deals with extremely serious subject matter and that we must do our due diligence.

There will be no time allocation on this committee, I hope, on the part of both ministers.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Madam Boivin, as you would know, ministers do not interfere in the business of committees. We do not direct the timing, or the witnesses, or the length of time you'll have to study this bill.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

I'm glad to hear it.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

I totally agree with what you just said. This is a hugely important piece of legislation that will have a tremendous impact on our justice system. I am sure you will have the time you need to study it.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

C'est bien. I have just five minutes, so I'll proceed. It's a big bill.

Since 2006, the Conservative government has taken a myriad of measures to better protect children. You introduced the Safe Streets and Communities Act, which sets out new mandatory prison sentences for seven existing Criminal Code offences related to child sexual exploitation and abuse, including sexual assault, sexual assault with a weapon and aggravated sexual assault.

The act also prohibits anyone from providing sexually explicit material to a child for the purpose of facilitating the commission of a sexual offence, and from making an arrangement or agreement with a third party by means of a computer or other form of telecommunication to commit a sexual offence against a child.

The legislation also seeks to strengthen the National Sex Offender Registry, raise the age of consent to sexual activity from 14 to 16 years of age, legally require Internet service providers to report child pornography, enhance the monitoring of dangerous offenders and subject them to harsher sentences.

And yet, nine years later, here you are telling us that sex crimes against children have increased by 6%.

Does Bill C-26 represent your government's realization that its approach to tackling sex crimes against children has failed? If not, what research did you use to arrive at Bill C-26, to determine that these issues needed specific attention?

Mr. Blaney, my last question is for you. You talked about the registry for high-risk offenders. Who will determine whether an offender is high risk or not and how will that decision be made? Is the public supposed to be content knowing that the name of a dangerous offender roaming their streets is listed on a registry? Shouldn't the government work to get dangerous offenders off the streets, instead of putting so much emphasis on a registry?

I'll start with Minister MacKay; seniority, I'd say.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Thank you, Madam Boivin.

First, to your question on why more reforms, why more sentencing changes, particularly mandatory minimums, the short answer is that we can't do enough to protect vulnerable children.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Do the others not work?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

They have worked. The statistics demonstrate that the persistence of some sexual offenders gives rise to greater steps for deterrence, greater steps to arm our police in many cases, our officials, with greater ability to deter. The use of peace bonds, for example, or the breaching of peace bonds or orders that have specific measures in place to deter child offenders.... We think this is an important step to take as far as sending that message of deterrence.

On longer sentences, I would simply say that, in my view, when it comes to the damage, the harm, that flows to a child as a result of a sexual assault, I think the sentence ranges are still low in many cases, particularly for the high-end offences that involve abuse of children. But I would also—

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Is it your statement that the judges do not tend to go closer to the maximums that are provided and that sentences are too low in Canada?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Well, there's still a range, and I would say that the lower range is what I'm concerned about, which is why mandatory minimum penalties are part of this package.

As I mentioned in my opening statement, it goes beyond the criminal justice system simply meting out higher sentences. It has to be approached in a way such that we are putting what I would describe, through the child advocacy centres, as more wraparound support for a child, for the child's family, and for the community as well. The community has to be involved too.

This is part of the response that we feel is necessary. When we look at that very sad statistic of the number of sexual assaults on children that are still occurring, and the fact that 55% of all sexual assaults reported are on children under the age of 18, this is an alarming statistic in a country like ours, and it begs for a further response.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Often by a member of their own family, so it will be interesting with the register.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

You have one more minute, including the answer.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Maybe we'll move to Minister Blaney.

How is your register...who is going to determine

whether an offender is designated as high risk or not?

Also, since these sex offences are usually perpetrated by family members, what impact will the registry have in that regard?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Thank you.

As you are no doubt aware, local law enforcement authorities are basically the ones who decide which individuals should be subject to public notification. That is already happening in Canada. What the Government of Canada wants to do is—

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

I am not asking you who is going to be subject to a notification but, rather, who will decide whether an offender is designated as high risk, as described in clause 29 of your bill.

Who will be responsible for that and what criteria will be used?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

As I indicated, local law enforcement authorities are already responsible for notifying the public of high-risk sex offenders. It is that data that will be compiled and added to the national database.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Madam Boivin.

Our next questioner is Mr. Dechert from the Conservative Party.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Before I turn to the ministers, Mr. Chair, I'd like to refer to something my colleague Madam Boivin mentioned.

She took the time to ask Minister MacKay about the amount of time this committee would take to study Bill C-26, this bill we're studying today. Of course, she will know that at our committee we had a discussion on the agenda for this bill and how many days we would have to study the bill. In fact, it was the NDP that suggested four days, which is the time we have allotted for the study.

I just think that because there are people watching today, they should know that this is the kind of nonsense we often get from the opposition. They actually set the time that they think we should study a bill for—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Mr. Dechert—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

—and then they try to make it that—