Justice Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2015

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Mr. Dechert, there's a point of order.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

—we are somehow cutting the time to study it a bit short.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Point of—

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Hold on.

Mr. Dechert, I'm interrupting you. We have a point of order.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Point of order, Mr. Dechert. I mean, what's said—

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Mr. Dechert doesn't answer to the point of order. I do.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Our subcommittee was in camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

That's right.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I just asked if the minister had any.... I didn't say anything about the committee or anything.

If he wants to go into what went on in the subcommittee, I have no problem. I'll have fun saying four for bills, one study, and 11 meetings—

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I appreciate that.

We only have an hour with the ministers. Let me be clear for the committee. We are going to talk about the subcommittee on agenda and also the time allocated to this after we're done with the ministers, unless you want to waste time doing it now and then their hour will be up, whichever you prefer. Let's move on.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay—

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

At any rate, let's move on. My colleague well understands it's not the ministers who determine how much time the committee decides to spend on any particular matter, and I think people should know that there has been no attempt by the government side to curtail the study of this bill.

In fact, Ministers, you should know that we think this bill is very important and we want to spend a significant amount of time and an appropriate amount of time studying this bill, so no one should be under any apprehension that the government side has been trying to restrict the time for study of this bill.

Minister MacKay, I'd like to start with you. You mentioned that there is more to addressing the issue of child sexual offences, which are unfortunately on the increase in Canada and I think that's a great tragedy, than punishment. The opposition often likes to point the finger at our side of the House of Commons and say that we're all about penalties and that we're not addressing either prevention or the provision of services to the victims of sex offences and other offences.

You mentioned the child youth advocacy centres and our government's support for them. You will know there is a very well-known centre in Toronto called the Boost centre, which you've visited and which does remarkable work in helping child sex victims. You've visited the William Davis family centre in Brampton, in Peel region, the area I represent. We're very hopeful that a similar child youth advocacy centre will be established in the Peel region to serve sexual assault victims in Peel region.

I wonder if you could tell us more about those centres, our government's support for them, and how you think that can help address the issue of child sexual assault.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dechert.

I must say, having been a participant either through the practice of law or through parliamentary work, and a long-time observer of our justice system, I think one of the single greatest accomplishments we have seen in recent years is these child advocacy centres, in their approach and in the incredible, compassionate work they do at the earliest stage when the harm has been committed, when it is fresh, if you will. You mentioned several of these centres in Ontario, and I have visited these centres now in just about every province and territory. We have 21 up and operational, with plans to bring about more.

The magic of these child advocacy centres is that they bring together the various agencies and individuals all working to support children, including the police, the courts, victim services, and child psychologists and psychiatrists: those who are tasked daily with helping to support young people deal with the trauma that inevitably flows from sexual interference and sexual assault on children, as well as helping their parents and dealing with the broader community impacts as well.

I mention that just to keep in mind what you said about taking a holistic approach to the harms that come from child sexual assaults. And the number is on the rise. There's simply no getting away from that. I know this committee is seized of this issue. I would be very quick to point out the non-partisan nature of this bill, and I think that will become apparent as you look further into the details. Yes, I fully expect, as I know Minister Blaney does, that you will give this a rigorous examination.

There are other things we can do as well. I had the opportunity to be in Madam Boivin's province just last week, in both Montreal and Quebec City, to see some of the programs that the Department of Justice also sponsors for young offenders who may, among other things, be involved in sexual violence and may be passing it on through a phenomenon that we have often seen, turning from victims into victimizers. These programs are aimed at young people who are in the system, so to speak, and who may benefit greatly from counselling, from programs, and from early intervention that will give them alternatives as they try to cope with the difficulties they have experienced. That is an add-on intention of this bill.

Mr. Chair, I have information about the child advocacy centres that I would like to leave with your committee at the conclusion of our testimony.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Make sure the clerk gets it, and that would be great. Thank you.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

We'd be pleased to see that, Minister.

Minister, as you know, this bill contains some changes to evidentiary rules around spousal testimony. Because many of these victims are young, often the testimony of a spouse is important. Can you tell us how this bill changes the evidentiary rules about spousal testimony?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Dechert, it has a very great impact on sexual offences in particular. In the past, a spouse who had very relevant evidence to present to the court was prevented from doing so, which had an impact on the crown's ability to secure convictions in cases involving children. In some cases, it wasn't a matter of the witness not wanting to take the stand, but rather of being prohibited from doing so under the rules of evidence.

In some ways, this bill has in fact been overtaken by another piece of legislation you're looking at, the victims bill of rights, which also has provisions that would essentially eliminate spousal immunity from testimony. But this bill, which was drafted around the same time, amends the Canada Evidence Act to specifically allow for spouses to be competent and compellable witnesses in sexual assault cases involving children.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Minister, for those answers

Our next questioner is from the Liberal Party. Mr. Easter, the floor is yours, sir.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Welcome, Ministers, and support folks.

I do have some familiarity with the development of the sex offender registry. I was a minister in 2002 when we got the federal-provincial agreement to go forward with the sex offender registry. I think it was two or three years after that before the government finally got it into legislation.

There's no question we firmly believe we have to do all we have to do to protect people from sexual crimes. But as I go through this bill, and I think the parliamentary secretary in part mentioned it, there are two sides to the equation. There are penalties and prevention, and there is also rehabilitation. I know that's not possible in all cases.

This is not my regular committee, as you would know. This bill seems to me to be mostly about putting greater penalties, more consecutive sentencing, and those kinds of things. You did mention child advocacy and the good work they do. Is there anything else that the government is doing on the healing side and the rehabilitation side to deal with this problem other than the increased penalties and consecutive sentencing? Is there anything proposed in this bill that will do that, that I have not spotted?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I would begin to answer, Mr. Chair, by mentioning that at Correctional Service of Canada when an inmate has been convicted of a sentence related to sexual harassment or even more importantly a sexual offence, he is taken in charge by the service and offered programs.

In all correctional jurisdictions in Canada, we are providing rehabilitation services to individuals convicted of sexual offences. Treatment services typically involve group counselling aimed at psychological risk factors. There are also medications that are part of it. There are psychological services and medication offered that are selectively used to manage compulsions and to lower sexual drive. The research has shown that comprehensive treatment programs can be expected to reduce the sexual recidivism rate of child molesters from 17% to 10% after a five-year period.

At Correctional Services there are programs offered while the inmate is serving his sentence. That is what happens once the individual is convicted of a crime.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I'll come back to Minister MacKay, I know he is working on an answer to the first question.

Minister Blaney, one of the big areas is that, as we all know, eventually these individuals come out of the correctional system. You are well aware of the program Circles of Support and Accountability which Steve Sullivan who is the director of Ottawa Victim Services spoke about at another committee. I'll just quote what he said, “If Circles of Support and Accountability loses its funding, communities will be put at greater risk.” He also said, “It's the only community program that stands between the more dangerous offenders and our children. It has saved countless children from violence and terror.”

The funding for that program has virtually been cut by your government. I'm not going to get into the long explanation of what those volunteers do to work with high-risk sex offenders when they come out, but the reality is they have saved countless families from sexual violence. Why is the government not continuing to fund that? Will you reconsider so that we can build on the rehabilitative side? We have to deal with all areas, not just penalties.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you for your question.

Indeed, we are working with many national voluntary organizations once the inmates have served their sentences and are released into the community. That includes the John Howard Society, the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies, the Salvation Army, the 7th Step Society of Canada, and the St. Leonard's Society.

The grants we had in place were providing a total of $1.1 million annually to 15 organizations. We have provided funding until 2014, and now we are evaluating the funding under this initiative. We are reviewing it. I'm expecting some feedback from my departmental official.

It is important that we be there at the different steps, but it is also important to send a signal that there's zero tolerance for attacking a child. That's also what is behind this bill, not only for a child in Canada, but also for a child abroad. This is why I strongly support Minister MacKay imposing mandatory minimum sentences. This is a crime that has to be clearly stated for what it is: despicable and socially unacceptable. As you know, we are putting measures in place. If an individual who has been convicted will be travelling abroad, even for a short time, he will have to report to the authorities, and the information will flow....

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Minister MacKay, do you have a quick answer?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Yes, very briefly, Mr. Chair.

In response to the question from Mr. Easter, there are programs and Minister Blaney mentioned a number of them. One that I'm aware of in Atlantic Canada is the New Leaf program. To be fair, this was a program that was also funded by the previous government, of which you were a member. It's aimed specifically at helping to rehabilitate the offender. Those program funding requests are reviewed annually across the country.

On the proactive side, the Get Cyber Safe program and some of the online sharing of information are things that I would always point to as well.

The sharing of information abroad is something that we as a country have to do more of. We need to be responsible for some of the perpetrators, sexual offenders, who go outside our country and go to jurisdictions where they don't have the same protections, the same programs, or they have laws that are lax, that allow for some of these sexual predators in our midst who have gone abroad and carried on this horrible practice.

There are aboriginal justice programs that are also in place to support both offenders and victims. I would point to our legislation, Bill C-36, that dealt with prostitution, which also has program funding in addition to the legislation.

This holistic approach you referred to is something that we're continuing.