Justice Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2013

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

That's right.

So, if I understand correctly, your coalition's main purpose is to prevent tobacco smuggling to allow those who sell tobacco legally to do so properly.

And if I understand you correctly, Ms. Doucas, you would prefer that the tobacco industry not exist at all, if I can say so.

[Flory Doucas]

Yes, that would be my personal preference. I also think that we would be better off both ethically and economically.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

You are speaking to a former smoker. I can say publicly how difficult it was for me to overcome this dependence. You are talking to someone who consumed Nicorette products for 14 years and who has just recently stopped doing so. If I sound aggressive sometimes, it is because I am still trying to quit. All that to say that I understand very well.

We must be logical. We live in a world that is slightly hypocritical. Indeed, all of us around this table recognize that this product kills. At the same time, we benefit from it economically, especially thanks to taxes. We cannot criticize other people for our system and our laws in this regard, that is true.

Something in your brief struck me. It makes us see the headlines differently. Last Thursday, an article on the Radio-Canada website was entitled: One out of every five cigarettes in New Brunswick is contraband. I think that this will interest my friend Robert Goguen. I read the article, I was shocked and then I remembered that we were about to begin the study of Bill C-10. I thought that it was going to be interesting to study it and that people would try and prove that contraband is a terrible thing.

In any case, things are not going well in New Brunswick. I made the connection between that article and your brief. The article says that in March, the provincial government had increased taxes on tobacco products in order to try to replenish its coffers.

If I understand correctly, you are telling us that there is not as much contraband as the headlines would have us believe. Every time governments raise taxes to generate more revenue—because that is a real cash cow—Mr. Grant's coalition sounds the alarm. They say be careful, contraband is a serious matter, and so forth, whereas all associations benefit from the sale of tobacco. Have I understood your basic message? You are telling us that contraband is not as serious as we think.

[Flory Doucas]

Obviously, we all agree that even one percent of contraband is one percent too much. No one is against virtue and no one is opposed to the fight against contraband.

Currently, the outcry is getting louder and louder each time there is an initiative seeking to reduce tobacco use. And yet tobacco use affects everyone, including young people and seniors. When we talk about regulation or a tax hike, the argument concerning contraband is always put forward.

As recently as 2010, the current government decided not to make warnings on packaging more visible, claiming that it would crack down on tobacco smuggling instead. It was only thanks to the work of health groups that people were made to understand that the two are not mutually exclusive.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I am going to wrap up, because my time is fast running out.

Mr. Don Cha, I think you said probably the most important thing. Everything was important, but you said we needed more policing on the ground. This law might be very interesting, but if we don't put the boots on the ground, not much will be happening, because nobody will come in front of the courts to be accused of contraband. So I appreciated that comment tremendously.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much. Thank you for those questions.

Our next questioner is Monsieur Goguen from the Conservative Party.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for appearing here today and providing your perspective.

Mr. Grant, I wonder if you could tell us about the positive effects that this bill would have on public health. There's a lot of concern about the substances found in illegal cigarettes, and they don't quite match what the consumer thinks. Trevor Bhupsingh of Public Safety said that the substances in these cigarettes are even more dangerous than those that are legally sold. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Gary Grant]

We don't have a position on that. We have seen the RCMP lab results of the contraband cigarettes. They're not pretty. Nobody wants to compare cigarettes with cigarettes, because they're all bad. So we don't have a position on that.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Would any of the other panellists want to comment on that?

[Gary Grant]

Sorry, I was going to follow up on that. There was a recent study where the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health indicated that, while teen smoking rates at one time were on the decline in Ontario, they are no longer on the decline. What they have found through their studies is that, if teens are smoking now, they're smoking more contraband. If they're smoking more contraband cigarettes, they're smoking more of them because they're (a) ridiculously cheap, and (b) cheaply made, or improperly made, as far as government regulations are concerned. I'm a non-smoker, so I don't know the difference. But apparently they burn down faster, so they are quickly done and they're sold in amounts of 200. There is an indicator that could be detrimental to our young people's health.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

The price point is more important than what they're smoking.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Does anybody else have anything?

Madam Doucas.

[Flory Doucas]

I'd like to remind everyone of something.

On page 13 of the brief, we report the findings of Health Canada, which studied the level of toxicity of contraband cigarettes versus legal cigarettes. The findings show that the risks are comparable. Certain retailers have conducted campaigns where posters were put up showing that contraband cigarettes could contain rat excrement, pesticides and all kinds of other stuff. The fact is that almost anything can go into manufactured cigarettes. It's not for nothing that they are lethal. The risks are very similar.

As concerns young people, I might remind you that British American Tobacco indicated in a document that its campaign against contraband tobacco is likely to curb tax hikes and ensure that there is no new regulation. We are told that its work will target four aspects: crime, young people, the closure of convenience stores, and loss of government revenue.

As concerns young people, certain figures have been distorted. The study by the CAMH, which has been mentioned here, shows that 43% of young people in secondary school in Ontario smoke contraband cigarettes. But the authors themselves say that this was a very small sample, that barely 2,000 students were polled and that, of this number, fewer than 200 of them smoked daily. The Statistics Canada study that I just mentioned to you, that is the Youth Smoking Survey, was conducted on 9,000 students in Ontario, and shows that recognized brands of cigarettes are the most popular.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you.

Just to pick up on what Mr. Grant was saying, we have studies showing that in 2007, 2008, and 2009, about 40% of the cigarettes found in Quebec schools were contraband. That certainly substantiates your point on that.

We had Madame Boivin tell us that boots on the ground are a big part of the solution to this dilemma, or certainly a part of it, and of course we've put in an initiative to get 50 RCMP officers designated to the task of the federal tobacco control strategy. Do you feel this will help, along with educating youth as to the noxious effects of tobacco? Will this somehow deal with this dilemma?

[Gary Grant]

Well, in dealing with education, I would like to remind members of the government that some time ago the promise was made to undertake a massive public education campaign. We'd like to promote that again.

I think the boots on the ground will be very well utilized. I've been on tours around Ontario and other places. I know that the RCMP are spread pretty thin in some areas, and they've always told me that they could certainly use the help. The task force could use the help in the epicentre area of the production of contraband.

I think the important thing in the bill to me, as a former police officer, is that rather than being treated as a tax law, which it has been for so long—it's just fine after fine, which people who are making millions and millions of dollars can afford to pay—the fact that we're zeroing in possibly on organized crime legislation, and at least the Criminal Code with minimum sentences, is more than welcome.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Our next questioner is from the Liberal Party.

Mr. McKay.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

My first question is for Ms. Doucas.

Senators Cordy and Fraser seem to be very concerned about the coalition of Mr. Grant's group here. Why is that an important question?

[Flory Doucas]

There are two fronts to that.

When a group purports to be caring about kids and uses that argument, saying that this should be the priority for government—to reduce tobacco—and, indeed, when we hear retailers saying that smoking rates are not in decline among youth because of contraband, well, one has to dig a little deeper, really.

Then what we see is that flavoured products were not counted in the butt studies that come from retailers at some point or another. They weren't found on the contraband market at that point and were more popular than cigarettes when the butt studies were done. They're sold exclusively on the legal market at this point. They have been playing an important role in the initiation of smoking in youth. Also, in terms of the brand products, we see how popular they are among kids.

So when the retailer associations and the coalition that was founded by the Canadian Convenience Stores Association say they care about kids and are telling government to concentrate on contraband, to make it their priority, that it's where they need to go, what they're really telling us and what they're really signalling is, “Don't touch the legal market.” Who benefits from that? Well, it's legal manufacturing. So that's—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Was there ever an answer to the question about the information about the organization, about what the contribution was on the part of the industry?

[Flory Doucas]

To our knowledge, no. We've asked the clerk and we've asked one of the senators, and they didn't receive an answer.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Grant, what do you say to Ms. Doucas' accusation that your group is somewhat compromised?

[Gary Grant]

Well, I disagree. The coalition is funded by its members. The members are widely spread across the spectrum.

In my view, we're talking about a bill that's going to deal with the criminal activity. I'm a non-smoker. I discourage smoking and I think smoking should be eliminated, but in my view as a police officer, I can recognize the difference between a legal and a regulated enterprise and a criminal enterprise. In my—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

But you have to say that he who pays the piper calls the tune—

[Gary Grant]

Yes, well, in my view, the funding of the committee, in a sense.... We're here to talk about the crime, and the goal of the coalition...and I wouldn't be involved with it if it were to sell legal cigarettes. My mission, as a former police officer and a father of four, and the coalition's mission, is to raise awareness of the negative impact of the contraband trade on all Canadians. We're victimizing the Canadian taxpayers, hard-working retailers, as we've heard here, and, most significantly, our young people. They're being victimized by organized crime.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Being a police officer, you've probably been in court. You know that not all witnesses are treated equally and not all witnesses—how should we say it?—come with entirely clean hands. So are you able to answer Senator Fraser's question, which is what's your budget and what portion of it comes from the tobacco industry?