National Defence Committee on Sept. 20th, 2006

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

Colleagues, I'd like to call this meeting to order, as we're pressed for time.

Before I introduce our witnesses today, there's some housekeeping we need to take care of. We will be as quick as we possibly can.

As you recall, at our previous meeting the request from committee members was to ask for the Minister of National Defence to appear before the committee. We've been notified that, given his schedule, the minister is not available to come before our committee before mid-October. I'll put that on the floor for any discussions or any comments. The floor is open.

Monsieur Dosanjh.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Well, it would have been good if the minister had come here and talked to us about where things are before attending the NATO ministers meeting, which I believe is on the 28th. Obviously there are some concerns about NATO now looking for more troops. Whether or not it was in the plan before remains a question, although we understand that's what is now being said. In that sense, it would have been good to hear from him and for him to hear from all of us as to what our concerns might be, so that when he goes to the NATO ministers meeting he's fully prepared.

But be that as it may, I'm disappointed.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

Are there any other comments?

Mr. McGuire.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Mr. Chairman, I agree that there certainly is disappointment that the minister can't be here, and I think we should ask him again.

The Prime Minister has called this a war, and I think it's incumbent upon the minister to brief the defence committee as soon as possible on what's going on in the war. Not only that, Mr. Chairman, I believe we should also have weekly briefings on the war, as we did in the past with the Gulf War. This committee should be brought up to date on at least a weekly basis, if not more often, and we certainly should have the minister here since he was in Afghanistan not too long ago. He should be here to talk to the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence and give us an update on what's going on there.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

Thank you, Mr. McGuire.

Are there any other comments on the minister's response?

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Can we subpoena him?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

I don't know what the privilege of the committee is. To my understanding, no; we can do what Mr. McGuire has suggested, and that is to request again. I know the comments from the two previous speakers were reflected in our last meeting, given the circumstances, but we have a response from the minister concerning his availability, and it's not before mid-October.

Monsieur Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I was kidding when I said the minister should be subpoenaed to testify. Perhaps the committee clerk could enlighten me.

It was my understanding that the National Defence Committee had the authority to subpoena witnesses. Am I to understand then that because of some regulation, the minister cannot be subpoenaed? Can he refuse to appear before this committee and do we not have the authority then to issue a subpoena?

[The Clerk of the Committee]

The committee may subpoena witnesses, but in order for it to be enforceable, the committee must report to the House. The House then moves a motion declaring the summons enforceable. Only rarely is a Minister of the Crown summoned to testify.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

What if I wanted to invite Mr. Pellerin who is seated over there to testify, but he refuses to appear. If that were the case, would the committee also be required to go through the House?

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I have a point of order. Mr. Chair, before this gets out of hand, I think it's important for the members to know that the minister is eager to attend this committee. He is simply unavailable in the short term to make the visit happen. I am sure the former ministers on this committee can understand the heavy workload that the Minister of Defence has to experience. So before we take this too far and revert to using some heavy-handed measures to get him here, perhaps my honourable colleagues would cut some slack for the minister and give him an opportunity to adjust his schedule as quickly as possible.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

We'll go back to Monsieur Bachand and then to Ms. Gallant.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I'm quite willing to give the Minister the benefit of the doubt, but he has to understand that this issue is a hot potato. If he is unwilling to rearrange his schedule, perhaps more drastic steps could be taken. I'm talking from a procedural standpoint, of course.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

I'll go to Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The interest seems to concern being briefed on what is going on in Afghanistan. Perhaps the clerk could arrange for us to have briefings at DND on a regular basis, if you feel that's necessary—if that is the true intent of being kept up to date on what's going on.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

I'll go to Mr. Dosanjh.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I think that DND briefings are appropriate from time to time, as we may see fit, but ultimately the minister is responsible for the entire department. Therefore, the real accountability rests with the minister. I think it's important for him to show up.

I recognize the time constraints and the burdens on a minister, but we are in a very complex and difficult situation in Afghanistan. The minister had said that he would provide regular reports to the House. We haven't had a report to the House so far. At least he could report to the committee. I believe the situation has escalated in the three or four months since we last met. It is important to hear directly from the minister as early as possible.

He may not be able to do so before the 28th, although it would have been preferable for him to be here before then, because he is going to the NATO ministers meeting, which is very important. We may have learned something from him, and as a result, we may have been able to make some suggestions that he might have found reasonable. It is not about this committee taking somebody to task; it's a matter of the exchange from which we can all learn, and the minister can also learn.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

Thank you.

I'll go to Mr. Bouchard.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

The House doesn't sit during the week of October 10. I think it would be best if the MInister meets with us before the break, particularly as we need information. If he doesn't appear until after the break, we'll already be past the midway point in October. I think we should revise our motion and ask the minister to rearrange his schedule so that he can appear at an earlier date, if possible, sometime between now and the end of September.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

I'm getting two different views here. One the one hand, you're asking me to request that the minister see whatever he can do to fit us in as early as possible. On the other hand, on hearing from Mr. Hiebert, I understand that the constraints are not that the minister doesn't want to be here. He wants to be here, but scheduling on his part makes it rather difficult. So I'm at your pleasure in terms of what—

Mr. Dosanjh.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I think both of those positions are in consonance with each other. Mr. Hiebert is saying that the minister might find it difficult to be here. We are saying that he should give it another try, and I think we should send a request for him to reconsider.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

Yes, Ms. Black.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

I second that motion.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

So your instruction to the chair is to communicate again and immediately with the minister, seeking his appearance before our committee. Am I correct?

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Ask him to reconsider.