Evidence of meeting #22 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was peacekeeping.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lewis MacKenzie  General (Retired), As an Individual

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Good morning everyone and welcome to the 22nd meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we will continue our study of the role of Canadian soldiers in international peace operations after 2011.

We have the pleasure of having with us,

as an individual, Lewis MacKenzie, Retired General.

You have the floor for 5 to 10 minutes. Following your presentation, the members of the committee will have some time to ask you a few questions.

Thank you very much. You have the floor.

11:05 a.m.

MGen Lewis MacKenzie General (Retired), As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to apologize, but I do not speak French very well.

Each time I went on a course, I was sent on another UN operation, and got away from Ottawa, which wasn't a bad thing.

As this is your last day before returning to your ridings, I actually thank you for being here. It wasn't like that when I went to school. During my time in uniform, I was sent here with government talking points, so it's nice to be able to express my personal opinion this morning without fearing a call from the CDS or the minister tomorrow morning.

Let me start by saying I think you have the cart before the horse. That is to say, what's the foreign policy that will dictate the employment of our military post-Afghanistan? Unfortunately, it's my observation that this is not unique to this committee. It's the usual way the defence policy is made in this country. If you research the subject, you will see that defence policy reviews have historically been done before foreign policy reviews, which is quite bizarre.

Presumably, the questions I was given about peace operations suggest those will be a priority for the Canadian Forces following Afghanistan. If the polls and the letters to the editors and the talk shows are to be believed, that would be in tune with the majority of public opinion. Mind you, that opinion ignores the fact that our self-proclaimed reputation as a peacekeeping nation is one of the great Canadian myths. To qualify as such, surely peacekeeping must have been a top foreign policy priority, and it never was. It was parked well behind sovereignty, defence of North America, and coalition or alliance obligations, with NATO being the alliance that demanded the most personnel and cash. During the Cold War, we had only modest numbers of troops deployed on peacekeeping operations, compared to our large, permanently stationed land and air forces on the central front in Europe. It seemed to me that successive governments endorsed a peacekeeping myth because it was cheap, and they could cut defence budgets while still maintaining some international profile.

We had massive deployments to peace operations only during the early 1990s, after the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. We had large missions in Bosnia, Croatia, Cyprus, the Golan, Cambodia, and Somalia. Three of them--Bosnia, Croatia, and Somalia, as well as a small mission in Rwanda--represented the end of peacekeeping missions as we knew them, all 13 of them from 1956 to 1990.

The difference, not noticed by the majority of the public, is that post-Cold War peacekeeping missions involve peace broken by factions, not countries. Factions don't have flags flying in front of the UN building in downtown Manhattan. They don't have delegations there. They don't give a damn for the UN, because the UN peacekeeping force operating under UN rules of engagement can't hurt them.

I say this as someone who others have described as the most experienced peacekeeper in the world, not because of the nine missions I served with, but because I served on UN duty in every rank from lieutenant to major-general, except for full colonel, and commanded a UN mission, not just the military component, in Central America, and established and commanded a subordinate mission in Sarajevo, where I reported directly to the United Nations, at least when they would answer the phone.

That brings up the capacity or lack thereof of the UN to direct and resource UN operations in which the use of deadly force is authorized. Eighteen years ago some of us said the UN was incapable of directing post-Cold War missions. While we were chastised--or in my case reprimanded--for saying so, we were heartened to hear the Under-Secretary-General for UN Peacekeeping say exactly the same thing just a few years ago.

Subcontracting to a nation to run a mission on behalf of the UN can work, as it did with the U.S. in the lead in Somalia and under Australian leadership in East Timor.

I saw the grimaces and winces when I mentioned Somalia as a success story for the U.S. The U.S.-led assault in December 1992 was the most successful intervention in the history of the United Nations. The force, including Canadians, went to a knife fight with a gun and established security conditions that permitted the safe delivery of humanitarian aid. It was only when the UN took over six months later--and I was there observing the handover for CTV--that the leadership of the mission self-destructed, and the entire mission left with its tail between its legs. By the way, and for the record, the U.S. commander of that intervention force, General Johnston, was standing by to appear before the Somalia inquiry to state that the Canadian Airborne Regiment was the best unit he had in his 36,000-man force. Too bad it was shut down before he had a chance to appear.

Assuming that our future foreign policy will continue to offer up Canadian military contributions to coalition alliance operations, some with UN blessings, some without, we have to maintain a flexible, combat-capable military. We must never again subordinate our military to ridiculous UN rules of engagement dreamed up in downtown Manhattan.

No matter how benign the mission, we should be prepared for the worst-case scenario, not the best case, which always dictates UN thinking as it is the least expensive. Let me give you a few examples.

While commanding a mission in Sarajevo, it was important for me to defend the airport from heavy tanks that were within about 400 or 500 metres. I asked permission from the United Nations to bring the TOW Under Armour, tube-launched, optically controlled, wire-guided missile systems that we had introduced and placed on top of armoured personnel carriers from our Canadians who were serving in Croatia. The UN came back and told me I could bring the missile launchers down but not the missiles. I obviously ignored the order, disobeyed the order, and brought them anyway.

I asked for mortars. They said I could bring the mortars down from the Canadian contingent, but not high-explosive ammunition, only illumination, so, presumably, I could see the people who were attacking us at night. And I ignored that order.

The Danes, when they came in and said they were bringing Leopard tanks, the UN said no. The Dutch brought them anyway and fired a few rounds at people who were shooting at them and they never got shot at again in their six-month tour. And in the case of the Dutch going into Srebrenica with nothing but small arms, we all know what happened there.

I conclude with something I have championed for the past 50 years unsuccessfully. Of all the countries in the world that should maintain an amphibious expeditionary capability, it's Canada. We keep bragging about our three oceans.

A thousand soldiers on board a purpose-built ship, one on each coast, capable of deploying on short notice, unlike today... Such ships cost less than a destroyer or a frigate and require smaller crews. Don't be fooled; the joint support ship project currently in suspension does not address this requirement. There is no space on board the JSS for combat troops and their equipment.

Such a capability would be invaluable not just for intervention operations but—equally important—for humanitarian missions, like those experienced recently following natural disasters in Haiti and the Indian Ocean, not to forget the one we're standing by for on the west coast of our own country.

The U.S., U.K., Spain, Italy, Holland, Australia, France, and Russia can't all be wrong as they currently expand their amphibious forces. Unfortunately, we don't have that capability, period.

I would be happy to discuss this during the Q and A, and I encourage you to consider this valuable addition to our military capabilities during your deliberations.

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much, General.

I will give the floor to Mr. Wilfert for seven minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. And General MacKenzie, it's nice to see you again.

I certainly concur with your first statement that we should do foreign policy before we do defence. Obviously we have to know what our vital interests are in order to then have the appropriate capabilities to move forward.

You talked about peacekeeping and myth, and as you know, myths are often far more powerful than reality. This committee is obviously seized with, and we've actually tailored our whole study on, the premise that Canadian soldiers will be involved in international peace operations after 2011. Maybe we are prisoners of that myth, because we continue to think we're going to, in some kind of form, do peacekeeping.

I guess the question I have for you first of all is this. If you look at Afghanistan, some would argue it's a conflict that is characteristic of conflicts to come. In other words, it's both peace enforcement and an issue of trying to develop a peace. Afghanistan may be, then, the test, and the Canadian public doesn't understand, as it did not understand in Somalia, that there's traditional peacekeeping and then there's peacemaking.

Could you comment on that and where you see us going? Then I want to talk to you about a naval-centric armed forces.

11:15 a.m.

General (Retired), As an Individual

MGen Lewis MacKenzie

It's the terminology that gets so abused. People have turned themselves inside out to try to describe what isn't chapter 6 peacekeeping operations--chapter 6 being characterized by three descriptions or criteria. One is that you're invited in by all sides to the conflict. Two, you're lightly armed for self-defence only. Three, you're impartial. Well, that sure as hell doesn't apply in Afghanistan.

In chapter 7 operations, the difference is that you can use deadly force to bring the situation under control. That is being applied, for example, in the Congo. The Americans will refuse, quite rightly in my estimation, to ever participate in a mission that's not chapter 7.

Afghanistan is counter-insurgency. It's war fighting. People who put a label of peace operations on it are misguided and they're confusing the glossary of terms that cover that particular operation. There is no peace. The defeat of an insurgency is when it no longer has an impact on your day-to-day life. It's like the situation in Spain or in Colombia, or wherever it's at least under control enough that it's no longer relevant to day-to-day operations.

I really recommend cleaning up the terminology. If somebody wants to call Afghanistan peace ops, I would strongly debate the wisdom of using that term.

I agree with you, though, sir, that's what we will probably be doing after Afghanistan, and we will be doing it in coalitions of the willing, whatever the title happens to be. That's what we have to be prepared for. Where we differ from the UN is that we don't go into these things prepared for the best-case scenario, because it never works out that way.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

What would be some of the lessons you would say we should learn, or have learned, from both the Balkans and Afghanistan?

11:15 a.m.

General (Retired), As an Individual

MGen Lewis MacKenzie

A key lesson for me is what I addressed at the tail end, and that is the ability to move units, homogeneous units, together to the theatre. An advance party is fine, but flying in bits here, landing the equipment there, trying to marry them up, bring them together, the whole idea is that... There's an old army expression: you never separate yourself from your rucksack and your snowshoes; when they're put on another vehicle, they will never end up where you are.

So that capability is staring us in the face with an amphibious expeditionary capability. Ninety-three percent of everything we've done in the last 50 years had a shoreline, or at least a place to unload and then move the stuff forward, as would be the case in Afghanistan.

Those lessons learned have been implemented brilliantly, I think, by the Canadian Forces, in that we didn't used to have an operations centre that controlled operations overseas and now we do. We have taken the lead, dragging, in some cases, Foreign Affairs, NGOs, etc., behind us to work together in sort of a relatively new concept—which really it isn't—of total integration of those people interested in the mission there and bringing them together in a common headquarters here in Ottawa and also in the field.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

If we assume that we will be involved in some form of future peace operations—and your answer may or may not be coloured by your own experience, and that's understandable—do you think the UN will have a significant role in peace operations or, given the new dynamics, would it be, say, NATO?

11:15 a.m.

General (Retired), As an Individual

MGen Lewis MacKenzie

Well, every time I got into trouble with the UN operation I always said to myself, “God, if only NATO was running this, I could do it right and I'd get the resources.” Now I discover NATO is a bigger debating society than the United Nations. In the United Nations there's just five that count, the permanent five. In NATO, what's the latest count?

So, no, NATO might not even survive the wash-up when this thing is over. There might be either tiers within NATO, and I mean various levels within NATO, of those that are willing--I call it the multiple choice alliance now. They get a mission and then one country will say, “I'll take that” or “I'll do a little bit of this.” Sorry, that's not the way it's supposed to work.

On the United Nations, after my misguided but accurate comment--don't phone the UN after five o'clock or on the weekend because there's nobody there to answer the phone--they established a situation room. But it's not an operations centre. When they staffed the situation room with officers from around the world, all the third world countries insisted that they be paid the $150 U.S. per day per diem, etc., and that wasn't happening because these were donations by countries like Canada of officers to serve there. So with this whole controversy they shut it down, and they don't have that officer support anymore in their headquarters. They're better, but they still cannot command and control at the operational level a mission in the field. Witness the Congo.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

The jury is still out, but the United Nations is still... You would still—

11:20 a.m.

General (Retired), As an Individual

MGen Lewis MacKenzie

They've done great studies. The Brahimi study came up with all kinds of brilliant recommendations, and not one of them is practical in reality, unfortunately.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I have a slew of others, but I'll end there.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I will give the floor to Mr. Bachand.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thanks.

I'll be speaking in French, of course, General.

Let me just say that it is an honour to have you with us. Earlier, I had a look at your résumé. I believe that you are the only Canadian to have been awarded the Meritorious Service Cross twice. So, you are quite an accomplished individual.

I listened to your presentation carefully. You talked about subcontracting. You said that certain countries were able to run successful missions because the UN had concluded a subcontracting agreement with them. However, there is something different about Afghanistan. The UN apparently wants to subcontract to NATO. I assume that you have read about NATO's new strategic concept. I believe that the UN is in need of a major reform because it is currently unable to execute missions effectively. Owing to that fact, the UN has to conclude subcontracting agreements with countries or with NATO.

Do you believe that this is a sound course of action, one that provides some insight into the UN's future?

11:20 a.m.

General (Retired), As an Individual

MGen Lewis MacKenzie

What's happened in Afghanistan proves the folly of a large and expanding alliance having no coherent strategy. By that I mean it is now mature or at least evolved to the point where the Americans are running the show. You've got to have somebody in charge. You can't have a committee in charge, and NATO is a big committee with a requirement for unanimity, not just in Brussels but all the way down the chain of command. All it takes is one country to put up its hand and say nyet or no and they have to go back and try to water down the direction.

NATO, hopefully, will regain an operational capability, based on all the studies that are being done, including internally within NATO now and one that Canada contributed through the Conference of Defence Associations Institute, and also the similar organization in Calgary; it might move in that direction. But if you're going to subcontract, in my estimation, you'd do it to a single country, because then it is in charge. It wouldn't have to establish a headquarters with representatives from 26 other countries, all of which have a little different way of doing things. Basically the litmus test is now. Even though NATO is on its back foot by the way it wasted the first number of years in Afghanistan, we'll now see whether the Americans can pull it out of the fire, but at least there's an American chain of command.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Could you explain to us how the rules of engagement are determined? When the UN offers a country or NATO a subcontracting agreement, is the rules of engagement issue...

Earlier, you said that you had wilfully disobeyed an order. I do not blame you for doing so, as bringing along missile launchers but not the missiles does not seem to be a good idea. Should the other side realize that you are bluffing, the situation could turn ugly.

When the UN concludes subcontracting agreements with NATO or a country, which side determines the rules of engagement? Having spoken to a number of military people about several theatres of peacekeeping operations, I got the impression that the difficult task of determining the rules of engagement is left to each of the nations participating in the theatre of operations. Another issue to consider is that of caveats.

Could you tell us a little bit about the rules of engagement, about who sets them? Does the participation of some 30 countries with different caveats not make commanding the mission extremely difficult?

11:25 a.m.

General (Retired), As an Individual

MGen Lewis MacKenzie

You key onto a very important handicap.

I wrote the rules of engagement for the United Nations when I was in Central America commanding the mission there. It was so boring that I didn't have much else to do. The war was virtually over, and the Contras had been demobilized.

I recommended that the mission be shut down. That was not accepted because there was a large civilian component turning it into their career choice. Subsequently, when it was shut down, it just moved to El Salvador. It's UNOSAL.

It was easy to write them for chapter 6--you know, 30 rounds of ammunition, don't carry your weapon loaded, be neutral, be impartial. Very rarely were you getting shot at. It was normally some out-of-control young soldier who wanted to take on a UN observer or soldier.

Now it's much more complicated, and now countries refuse to let the central agency in New York establish the rules of engagement. Each nation's lawyers, military, and foreign policy people get together and write the rules of engagement, and quite frankly, rarely can they keep up, because the situation changes in the field dramatically. That's when commanders have to earn their pay and adjust them as required. Yes, it's a key issue.

Nobody, but nobody, issued rules of engagement in World War II. You were supposed to kill as many as you could, get them out of the way, and recapture the territory. Today it would be politically incorrect to establish or to issue a rule of engagement like that.

For soldiers it's very frustrating, and ever more shall be so, I imagine, because I don't think any nation will subordinate itself to UN rules of engagement or NATO rules of engagement again.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

How about these caveats? Talk to us about these caveats. Is it a nightmare in the operational theatre to...?

11:25 a.m.

General (Retired), As an Individual

MGen Lewis MacKenzie

It is, but it's a result of democracy in action. When the Canadians moved south over the Christmas period of 2005 to Kandahar--I just happened to be there--from Kabul, the British and the Dutch were to arrive in Kandahar with them shortly thereafter, as were NATO headquarters. With minority governments and democracy in action, the British and the Dutch parliament equivalents debated for six months. Then they showed up, but that was democracy in action.

I could give you worse examples. I helped the Japanese prepare for their first overseas mission, and the Diet in Japan debated four months over whether they'd be allowed to take one machine gun or two. I mean, getting into that detail... But that's what happens these days.

It's a key issue. We must ensure that our troops have the most flexible--not specific--rules of engagement, depending on the situation.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much.

Thank you, General.

Now I will give the floor to Mr. Harris.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome, General MacKenzie.

You seem to think the United Nations peacekeeping role is not something Canada should be involved in, yet we are told by Canada's permanent representative to the UN that there are 15 peacekeeping missions under way involving 120,000 men and women from 116 countries and a contingent of 85,000 troops. Are you saying they're all wasting their time and that Canada shouldn't have anything to do with that?

11:25 a.m.

General (Retired), As an Individual

MGen Lewis MacKenzie

I'm saying they're not in a position to greatly influence the situation in most of the missions.

Let's use the Congo as an example. There are seven foreign armies and 11 factions currently fighting in the Congo. If we were to put a battle group in there of 1,200 or 1,400, they would be a mere drop in the bucket. It would take them days and days to go 10 or 15 kilometres during most of their movement requirements because of the lack of infrastructure.

The vast majority, to be terribly unkind but accurate... I've had soldiers from Nigeria, Pakistan, and Bangladesh under my command. The soldiers are excellent. Their countries have them there for $150 per month, per soldier, paid into their national coffers. They're a source of income for those countries. As a result their soldiers are grossly underpaid—and I've had experience with that with these soldiers. They turn to the black market, the female slave trade, prostitution, etc., all publicly announced and described in the open media. They are a commander's nightmare. At present in the Congo, with that very large force, they maybe have part of the capital under control. So that's the type of success story the UN describes.

You may go into an area where the factions want somebody to help them re-establish peace. A perfect example, and probably the best recent one, is Eritrea and Ethiopia. That was conventional chapter 6 peacekeeping. “We're tired of fighting. Please come in, interpose yourself between our two forces along a common border, and give us a chance to get some breathing space.”

So yes, we can participate in those missions. The question is, what will our influence be? Not only that, they won't request combat soldiers; they'll request logistics, communications, legal, etc. When we send those folks overseas, we can't train them back here, because you need your service battalions.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I guess that's a question of how much you have in the way of resources.

Our ambassador to the UN also said that the UN has embarked on a process of reforming the field support system, aimed at enhancing rapid deployability and mission sustainment. This seems to be directed at some of the things you were concerned about in terms of operations and that sort of thing. There seems to be some response to the kinds of concerns you had.

There have been some changes within the UN structure, and Canada has been involved to some extent. The “responsibility to protect” doctrine is being developed. There's the New Horizon project through the UN. They are both indicative of changes that are being made and worked through.

Do you personally see Canada as potentially having a positive role to play in enhancing the UN's capability, whether it be in developing doctrine, our peacekeeping experience, or your experience in assisting with rules of engagement and reforming them so they are flexible and adaptable to the situation you find them in? Is there a role for Canada in being a strong player at the UN and contributing what we can to improve the situation?

11:30 a.m.

General (Retired), As an Individual

MGen Lewis MacKenzie

I personally don't see that, because the UN is the sum of its parts. I know that because it has been said over and over. The fact is that there are five permanent members on the Security Council that dictate the employment of resources within the United Nations. Those five members in 1945 were parked in that Security Council to make sure they didn't fight each other, not to make really brilliant, unanimous decisions. As you know, it has to be unanimous, even though recommendations have been made to have two vetos rather than one among the permanent five. That's the controlling agency. The funds then come from the General Assembly. The UN bureaucracy is always faced with the dilemma of receiving direction that it can then not resource.

The safe havens in Bosnia are a perfect example. When I was asked by the United States congressional committee, where I was appearing as a witness, “General MacKenzie, how many troops to defend the safe havens in Bosnia?” I said “125,000.” “Why so many?” “Well, like a stone in a quiet lake, the ripple effect represents artillery fire. You go out 30Ks, they'll move back 30Ks. You have to go out 30K more to shut down the artillery. You're pacifying the whole country.”

General Briquemont, who was one of my followers in Sarajevo, said “I agree with General MacKenzie; I'll try it with 70,000.” Boutros Boutros-Ghali, the Secretary-General, went in front of the Security Council and pleaded for 27,500. The Security Council approved 12,500, and six months later, 2,000 arrived. So they went back and rewrote the mandate to say that the UN would not defend the safe havens but that the UN, by their presence, would deter attacks on the safe havens, and the result was Srebrenica.

Who is responsible for Srebrenica? Way more than 50%, it was the UN. That hasn't changed. The UN administration is handcuffed by the lack of resources from donating nations, Canada included, and the neanderthal-like decision process among the permanent five members. It used to be that the permanent five members were precluded from conducting operations within the UN mandate. Only the Brits were the exception, with two sovereign bases in Cypress: Akrotiri and Dhekelia. But now they're getting involved in the operations, so they have even more concern and influence within the decision-making process and the Security Council as to where missions go.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I was interested in your comments about the joint supply ships and the need for an amphibious expedition capability. You don't think C-17s can duplicate that effort you need. Why do you need the troops all together on a ship? Is this a “take your own kit with you” scenario, and the C-17s can't fulfill that role?