Evidence of meeting #32 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was main.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bruce Donaldson  Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence
Kevin Lindsey  Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Corporate Services, Department of National Defence
Dan Ross  Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Department of National Defence

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Julian Fantino Conservative Vaughan, ON

We will be expending the allotted amount of $9 billion for the acquisition, if we are going to go there. We are not in a position to be specifically able to give you that definitive figure at this time. That decision will be made if and when those factors are known to us, and the decision will be made as to whether or not Canada will actually enter into a contract to purchase the F-35.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Yes, but it does make us wonder. We know that the costs may change later, but we would like to know how the situation has developed.

I think that Canadians want to know how much Canada is going to pay per aircraft, at this time.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Julian Fantino Conservative Vaughan, ON

I think the only factual answer that can be given at this point in time is that the Canadian government has allocated $9 billion to ensure that our men and women in the air force and in the military are afforded the best equipment possible to do their jobs. We are part of the joint strike fighter program. We are all monitoring the situation. Decisions will yet have to be made. Those definitive numbers are not known at this time, but we will work within the envelope to ensure that the men and women get the best equipment at the very best consideration for taxpayers.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

When, approximately, will we know the figures?

Noon

Conservative

Julian Fantino Conservative Vaughan, ON

Well, we will hopefully know within the next little while. We can't give you that definitive number now, but we can tell you that we are confident that Canada's role in the joint strike fighter program, along with our partners, is working very diligently to ensure that—

Noon

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I apologize for interrupting—

Noon

Conservative

Julian Fantino Conservative Vaughan, ON

Excuse me, I'm not finished yet.

May I finish, Mr. Chair?

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Time is getting compressed quickly.

Would you please show respect to our witnesses?

Noon

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Okay.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Go ahead, Minister.

Noon

Conservative

Julian Fantino Conservative Vaughan, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The exercise is for us to be intimately plugged in with the industry, and with our partners in the project. If and when the decision is made, we'll be able to reflect those numbers back to you.

Noon

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I would like to know something else. Improvements will eventually have to be made to infrastructure if we decide to purchase the F-35s. You appear to be saying that Canada has made a serious commitment. So landing strips will have to be extended, and hangars will have to be renovated. These are improvements in our infrastructure that are required if we are to properly maintain the F-35s.

When will that be included in the budget? What do you estimate the cost of these improvements to be?

Noon

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Thank you very much.

You are right: it is absolutely essential to improve the infrastructure, especially that located in Bagotville and in Cold Lake, Alberta.

I can tell you that some of those investments have already been made, as you can imagine. We're flying the F-18s, and we've been maintaining those hangars for years.

In terms of the size of the fleet, there isn't a need for increase in terms of actual hangar space, because it is a different plane—it comes with different technology, different kit, and different simulators. That will be accounted for in future investments. Because we will not be taking delivery of the plane for some years out, there is planning in place, and that planning will reflect those investments in future budgets. It's not reflected here.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Chisu, it's your turn.

Noon

Conservative

Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much to the witnesses appearing in front of us, especially the two ministers.

I have three questions. Hopefully I'll have time. One is generic, one is related to supplementary estimates (C), and one is related to the main estimates. I'll start with the generic question.

Minister MacKay, as a first-generation immigrant to Canada, a former serving member in the Canadian Forces engineer reserve and regular force, and a veteran from Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Afghanistan, I have a pretty basic question, but I think the message is very important to understand.

How has the Canadian Forces been able to achieve the significant success we have witnessed in Afghanistan, Libya, Haiti, and the Olympics? Further, has this resulted in the Canadian Forces being among the most respected militaries in the world? I am proud of the Canadian Forces. I am thankful for your wise leadership in this department.

The second question is related to the supplementary estimates (C). This committee heard from numerous witnesses, through our study on readiness, that maintaining a presence in the Arctic is becoming increasingly important to the security and sovereignty of Canada. Is there anything in these estimates that addresses this reality, and is it enough?

The third question is related to the main estimates. In the wake of the Canadian Forces' recent successes in both Afghanistan and Libya, how successful has the Canadian Forces been in recruiting and retaining personnel? Are we close to meeting projected goals of personnel? Additionally, are there any gaps in the Canadian Forces that are currently being addressed? I see a potential reduction in training and personnel recruiting.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Noon

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Thank you very much, sir, and let me begin by thanking you for your stellar career in uniform. You've referenced the fact that these were some of the proudest days of your life.

I think it's fair to say that the esprit de corps and the overall morale of our men and women in uniform has increased substantially in recent years. That is in large part a result of the recognition that is being expressed across the country in very public organized events, such as red rallies and yellow ribbon campaigns, sports and community appreciations, or even, tragically, the Highway of Heroes.

In terms of the high tempo of operations in Afghanistan, which you've referenced, while we are no longer involved in combat in Afghanistan we continue to play a significant role in training. This is at the very essence of what soldiers do. They want to be active. They want to go places. They want to make a difference in the world, as I'm sure you did during your career.

I also want to highlight something you alluded to and it is that the face of the Canadian Forces has changed significantly. It is reflective of the multicultural nature of our country. I've attended many events where soldiers, sailors, and airmen and airwomen are on parade, and I've attended many cadet functions, which is a similar reflection of the fact that we have a very diverse Canadian Forces. We have people who have come from, in many cases, war-torn countries to Canada and some of their proudest and greatest contributions have come through the Canadian Forces. They have made the decision to serve in uniform, as you did.

With respect to your question about recruiting, we have in many cases far exceeded our numbers, partly as a reflection of the higher profile that the Canadian Forces have played in recent years. I am confident in saying they are among the most respected institutions in our country today, if not the most respected. The active recruiting effort that was put forward by the Department of National Defence, which included ads you would have seen on national television and movie theatres, was a very active recruiting effort that brought a lot of attention and brought a lot of people into the various trades.

Having said that, we're ahead of time and pace as far as recruitment is concerned. There are certain pressures in certain trades, stress trades they call them, where we do still very much need people coming into uniform and coming into the forces. But we're at a posture of about 68,000 in the regular force and just under 27,000 reservists. So we're ahead of pace in terms of the Canada First defence strategy, and the numbers and projections we had put forward.

As you would know, we have to keep that in balance with our infrastructure, our training facilities, our equipment, and the readiness posture. So all of those are factors we have to continually weigh.

Your question about the Arctic is a very good one, because you're right to highlight the fact that we've made a decision as a government to concentrate on the Arctic. The Canadian Forces play a major part with the whole-of-government partners in increasing the footprint in the Arctic. A big part of that are the Canadian Rangers and the Junior Canadian Rangers program. They are a significant part of the Canadian Forces in terms of our presence and operations there. We carry out annual operations. There is Operation Nunalivut, which is happening in just a few weeks, and Operation Nanook is another exercise that goes on annually. We've actually invited, in some cases, countries like Norway and the United States to participate.

There is, in fact, in the supplementary estimates (C), $14.5 million for one of these operations, which involves the presence of Arctic ships and personnel, and a sovereignty exercise that takes place.

I believe you had a question, as well, with respect to simply the leadership and the success of our Canadian Forces in places like Afghanistan and Haiti. That I would put down very much to the professionalism and the training that prepares our Canadian Forces for whatever may come. Haiti was a good example of something that nobody had expected. It was, of course, in response to an earthquake and the aftermath and dealing with human suffering.

With our Canadian Forces we were among the first countries to arrive with boots on the ground, setting up a Role 3 hospital, providing water and food and medical treatment, and helping to clear the rubble and rescue people, who were still very much in jeopardy.

It shows the diversity and the ability to react to circumstances. That, I think, has been one of the hallmarks of the Canadian Forces—their adaptability, their professionalism, and their desire to make a positive difference in the world.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you, Minister. Time has expired.

Mr. Kellway, you have the floor.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Kellway NDP Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you, thank you to all of the witnesses who have come to see us today to answer questions.

I will ask all of my questions, with all due respect, to the witnesses. But I do hope that the witnesses appreciate that this committee has a role in our system of government and that members of this committee would like some very specific answers to some very specific questions. I seek the chair's support for that.

Mr. Fantino, first off, I know that you like to answer questions in a broad way. But I have some very specific questions for you today on the F-35. The first, sir, is whether the cost of the F-35 was discussed at your meeting in Washington 10 days ago.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Julian Fantino Conservative Vaughan, ON

The actual discussion was based on the timeframe of when the actual purchases will happen. If Canada were to purchase the aircraft, there would be some 400 aircraft already off the production line. There are other countries, as you know, that have come on board. Japan has, I know, and there are others in the wings. Some of that will be contingent on the actual number of aircraft that ultimately will be produced.

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Kellway NDP Beaches—East York, ON

I appreciate, Mr. Fantino, that cost is intimately tied to the production schedule. Were the implications of the production schedule discussed with respect to cost?

It's a very simple question, sir. Was cost discussed at the committee in Washington?

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Julian Fantino Conservative Vaughan, ON

It was. There is some modification to the cost. If I can, I'll ask for clarification on the actual determinate factor. It's very minor.

Dan, can you help out?

12:10 p.m.

Dan Ross Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Department of National Defence

There were no specific numbers, obviously, at the discussions in Washington. It will depend on the joint strike fighter program office continuing their analysis of the effect of their profiling 179 fighters from the first five years to a later production—

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Kellway NDP Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you, Mr. Ross. I appreciate that.

Mr. Fantino, I have a briefing note you were copied on. It was actually a briefing note to the minister, and in that briefing note it says that the purpose of this trip, the minister's trip to Lockheed Martin, which I understand you went on, was to demonstrate the government's commitment to the JSF program—I'm not sure I understand that part—while impressing on key interlocutors Canadian concerns about cost, production schedules, and the need for transparent communication with JSF partners.

I note that you had that discussion at Lockheed Martin, I think, back in November. You sought an emergency meeting with JSF partners in March. There's another one coming up in Australia.

You leave this meeting in March, Mr. Fantino, clearly with no progress on the issue of the transparency of this program. I know that the Americans—Vice-Admiral Venlet—came out of that meeting advising that the cost is going up. I take it that you did not discuss those costs with the partners at the meeting in Washington. Is that what you're testifying today?

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Julian Fantino Conservative Vaughan, ON

To begin with, you're totally and absolutely wrong in your characterization of the meeting. It was not an emergency meeting. I know that you've referred to that a number of times. That's absolutely—

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Kellway NDP Beaches—East York, ON

Mr. Fantino, eliminate the emergency meeting.

Are you testifying today, sir, that at your meeting in Washington you were not provided with costs or even estimates? I know that you're suggesting, sir, that there is no definitive cost. But you were not provided with estimates of cost based on the production schedule when you were in Washington.