Evidence of meeting #60 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dog.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Corporal Bill Nachuk  As an Individual
Geoffry Logue  As an Individual
Rakesh Jetly  Mental Health Advisor, Directorate of Mental Health, Department of National Defence

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

I want to make sure that we stay on schedule because we have a busy agenda today.

Welcome to meeting number 60, as we continue on with our study of the care of ill and injured Canadian Forces members.

Two service members are joining us today as individuals, Bill Nachuk and Geoffry Logue. I want to welcome both of you to the committee. I'll let you give your backgrounds. We're very interested in your experience within the CF and with your service dogs.

With that, I'll turn it over to Bill. You have the floor, sir.

3:35 p.m.

Master Corporal Bill Nachuk As an Individual

Hello, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to come to speak to you and to the committee today.

I am Master Corporal Nachuk. I joined the regular force in 1996. I am a signaller by trade, and that gives me an opportunity to deploy and work with several different units within the military.

I have had several tours. I have been to the Golan Heights and worked on both sides, in Syria and Israel. I've had three tours to Bosnia and Afghanistan. My latest return was in September 2008, when I returned from my last tour in Afghanistan with 2 PPCLI.

I'm not 100% sure where to begin. There is a lot of information I want to pass on to you.

About a year after I returned from Afghanistan, in July 2009, things really went bad for me. That's when the total effects of what was later diagnosed as PTSD really struck home. I was taken to the emergency room on July 29, 2009, after my first suicide attempt. That's when I began seeing mental health people at CFB Shilo. They did their testing and realized I had what they classify as OSI, operational stress injuries. That encompasses a major depressive disorder, which I've been diagnosed with, as well as PTSD, anxiety, and anger issues.

Within six months I was taken to emergency four times for suicidal threats and attempts. Once I started working with the mental health unit on base, it took a few months to be able to go in. After I was referred to the OSI clinic at Deer Lodge Centre in Winnipeg, it took several months for me to get to see them, at which point they did their initial assessment. They discussed whether or not to take me on as a patient. About a week later, they decided that they would, but it took several months for me to get my first appointment. In total, it took approximately six months after they recommended that I go to Deer Lodge Centre for me to actually start my treatments with the civilian psychiatrists and specialists.

During that time, I met Mr. George Leonard in the fall of 2010, partway through my treatment. I met him because my OSI doctors started mentioning dogs. I was telling them that I didn't have a dog and I noticed that when my friend came over with his dog I found myself more relaxed, and that opened up the discussion of the benefit of dogs. I got hold of George and found out a little bit about the program and took it upon myself, knowing I needed additional help and tools along with my therapy treatment and medication.

I'd like to read a letter from my doctor, which explains a little bit about how the dog actually assisted me at that time. This letter is dated May 14, 2012, a little after I had done my treatments. It goes as follows:

MCpl. Nachuk engaged in psychotherapy for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and Major Depressive Disorder from August 27, 2010 to June 01, 2011 at the Occupational Stress Injury Clinic in Winnipeg, Manitoba. During the time of therapy, MCpl. Nachuk met his dog Gambler. They entered into the Manitoba Search and Rescue Association (MSRA) Elite Service Dog Program. A significant component therapy for MCpl. Nachuk was to actively work against the tendency to avoid social situations and to acquire emotional regulation skills. With the aid of his dog Gambler, MCpl. Nachuk successfully engaged in the exercises of therapy that required him to place himself into settings in which he felt anxious. Gambler helped decrease the need for hypervigilance by providing a sense of protection for MCpl. Nachuk. The presence of Gambler assisted in helping regulate M/Cpl Nachuk's intense emotional response to triggers by providing...a more flexible thought process in order to challenge emotional responses with more functional cognitions. Caring for his dog Gambler, has provided MCpl. Nachuk with a renewed sense of purpose and motivation. In addition to experiencing a decrease in symptom intensity, MCpl. [Nachuk] has experienced an increase in self confidence and improved mood.

I fully endorse individuals establishing a service dog relationship to help achieve the goals of therapy and to maintain gains made in therapy.

That was from my therapist, Chris Enns, at the OSI clinic in Winnipeg.

I've also given the clerk several independent statements. I had Gambler on a career course with me in Kingston just recently, which I would not have been able to attend if I hadn't had my dog with me.

Those statements are provided to you as well.

I thought it was possible for me to get extra help by getting a canine because of the documentation I had read on them and on how they help. I know the British and Americans have been using them with their soldiers for a number of years now. In my opinion, medications will help dull the sense of your PTSD, but the dog actually helps in the treatment of it. The dog will force you to engage in conversation. It forces you to get out of bed in the morning, to get out, because you must take care of that dog. The dog takes the focus off of you. I know many of you may think that it must draw more attention to you when you go out, but that's not the case. When we go out, we feel everybody is staring at us and watching us. Now when we go out with the dog, that attention automatically goes right to the dog, and you see and hear so many positive remarks. That forces us to engage, and it also gives us a sense of protection.

Before I got the dog, I could not spend more than 10 minutes in the mall. For you that are aware, I was in Shilo, which is about a half-hour ride from Brandon. Every time I needed to get groceries or anything like that for daily living, I had to drive a half an hour into town. I could not accomplish my daily tasks of getting groceries, food, or anything like that because after 10 minutes, I would become very angry.

I will always remember one particular event. I saw a small child, maybe five or six years old, in the bulk candy section. The kid had his mouth full of candy. I just snapped, and I yelled, "Does candy taste good?" I was all about the rules and regulations and safety. Where are your parents? Why are you doing this? That's how I would become so angry. Having Gambler took that focus away from me. It made me more relaxed.

When I mentioned to the medical doctors on base that I was thinking of getting a dog, I was told, “You can barely take care of yourself. How are you going to take care of a dog?” That belittled me even more, and it's actually the dog that's taking care of me, not me taking care of the dog.

When I first started working with the dog, because it was a new thing to the CF, I was faced with a lot of problems on base. I was threatened with medical release. I was told to contact the JPSU myself to see if there was an opening there and if they could take me on. When I didn't do that and I was back in the office again, I was punished for not going to the JPSU to see if they could find a spot for me.

That is not a soldier's job. It is the chain of command's job to try to place a soldier, not the job of a soldier. I felt as though I was being penalized and segregated because I wanted to use this other tool available to assist my well-being. I had to take care of myself.

My dad always told me to watch out for number one.

Well, in 2010 I went from almost being released from the military to starting to work with the dog. I was then posted to Gagetown, at which point, in 2012, in my last session, I was ranked within the top 10 out of 187 regular force master corporals.

The point I want to bring home is that we cannot lose hope for the soldiers if they have a problem with PTSD. They're not forgotten problems. We have to give them every opportunity. We fight for this country, and I'm really hoping that the country will fight for us and give us just another tool that we need for this.

A member sent me an e-mail after the show aired on W5, and it broke down his costs for medication. In one year alone, medication was almost $24,000. In the month of October 2012, his meds cost $4,000. Out of that $24,000, roughly $18,000 was paid by our group plan. I am not sure who picks up the remainder. What we're asking for and what I would like to see is a public announcement made by the CF saying that this program is supported by the CF. Until that happens, I firmly believe there are many members out there who are going to fear to come forward; I know that, because it happened to me. We had a lot of people coming up for this. We need to show them that we are supporting them.

I ask you: please, give us all the tools that we require.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you, Mr. Nachuk.

Mr. Logue, it's your turn. You have the floor.

3:45 p.m.

Geoffry Logue As an Individual

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, and ladies and gentlemen of the committee.

My name is Bombardier Geoff Logue. Currently I'm posted with the joint personnel support unit in Shilo. Prior to this, I served with the 1st Regiment, Royal Canadian Horse Artillery. I've served in the Canadian Forces since May 15, 2003. I was part of Operation Athena, rotation 5, task force 1-08, Afghanistan. I served with the provincial reconstruction team. My tour, to say the least, was very difficult.

I came home and I couldn't leave my house. I couldn't go out and get groceries. I had to get my wife to do that for me, because I couldn't even leave. I was too terrified of the people around me.

When I came back from my tour, I was sent home on a civilian flight. I was repatriated to Canada on a civilian flight. I had no decompression time. My decompression was at the Boston Pizza in Portage la Prairie, Manitoba. I was presented a leave pass and told that I had the next two months off. I didn't have any support. I didn't have anyone to go to.

Since I've been back from my tour, I've been to six treatment centres. I've spent over a year in treatment centres and psychiatric wards. I've put tremendous stress on my family and all my friends. I attempted suicide three times, one of which was last year, when I overdosed on a large number of sleeping pills. I was on life support in intensive care for a week. My wife has hung in there and has been by my side this entire time.

Last year I got my service dog, Luna, from a pet store in Brandon, Manitoba, when she was only eight weeks old. I didn't realize the full impact of having a dog until I started training and working with Mr. Leonard, with the Manitoba Search and Rescue program. Since coming forward with the program...it's done me wonders. I can now leave my house, and not in fear.

My journey through my military career has been very challenging, but I've always done the best job that I could. I've always tried to perform at the highest level that I could perform.

I am going to be medically released from the Canadian Forces. I'm currently waiting for a disclosure package, which will have my release date. I've been told that I could be released within six months, I could be released within thirty days, I could be released within two years, three years, but it's not up to me.

Personally, I am not ready to be released right now. I have a lot more work that needs to be done. Now that I'm getting better, I want to have the opportunity to continue to serve in the military. I don't want to be abandoned. The military is all I've every known; I joined when I was 18 years old.

When I came back from my tour I was on a large freezer bag full of medication. I was on so many medications that I couldn't keep track of what I was taking. My mind was cloudy, foggy. I was a zombie.

The joint personnel support unit that I'm with in Shilo has been incredibly supportive. In fact, they had mentioned to me about Mr. Leonard and the program, and that is how I got in contact with them.

Something needs to be done here. Our soldiers are killing themselves, and this is wrong. The Department of Veterans Affairs Canada recognizes Seeing Eye dogs for soldiers, but they do not provide funding for psychiatric service dogs. Mr. Chair, I am pleading to you and to the committee to please provide funding and have this recognized through the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada so that we can save our soldiers. The war may be done, but there is still battle going on with our troops at home in our own minds.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you, Mr. Logue.

We want to thank both of you for your very honest and candid comments that you just made. You have bravely served as soldiers, and I just want to say that this took a lot of courage to come here and share your personal experiences and struggles, and for that we are grateful, first for your service to your country, but we are also very thankful that you're here to share your experiences with us as a committee so that we can put together good recommendations to go to the government.

With that, we'll go to our first round of questioning. It's going to be a seven-minute round.

Mr. Harris, you have the floor.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank you both for coming here today. I believe you demonstrated the bravery and courage that we expect and admire in soldiers. As you pointed out, it's a different field of struggle or battle, and I know it's difficult to appear before a committee like this and tell your personal stories, but I want to say that I certainly, and I think all of our committee, still regard you as soldiers who have served your country honourably, and you deserve to be treated properly in return as part of our duty to you. Thank you for coming and telling these stories.

I do have some questions. I have some previous experience with individuals who have suffered from PTSD and other related types of psychological injuries.

Master Corporal Nachuk, you read a couple of terms from the letter. Maybe if you could help us with it, we could understand how this interaction with the use of a therapeutic dog would help. The letter says that you had experiences of what was called “hypervigilance” and that these symptoms were assisted by or diminished by the availability and the presence of the dog, and also that the dog helps to enable you to “regulate...emotional responses to triggers”.

Could you give us a little help with what that means in practice? What is hypervigilance, and how does the dog help? What does it mean by “emotional responses to triggers”? How is that helped by the presence of the dog, or is it helped?

3:55 p.m.

MCpl Bill Nachuk

Yes, sir. First of all, hypervigilance is basically always being on guard. You're always looking around, checking what's going on. Basically you're always on alert, and that mixes to the emotional response triggers.

For example, you're in a mall and somebody drops a can on the ground. You hear that sharp crack, that bang. You're hypervigilant because you're always seeing what's going on around you. Your emotional response to triggers is you're hearing a bang or a shot or something, and you're startled. You're brought back into that time when you heard it.

When I first got back, I went golfing, and right near the golf course was a firing range, oddly enough, so I wasn't golfing, I was hearing gunshots, and that just brings you right back to the incident time. That hypervigilance and the emotional triggering go hand in hand. Does that answer your—

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Does the dog have some effect on this?

3:55 p.m.

MCpl Bill Nachuk

Yes. For the hypervigilance, I focus on the dog. I am not always scanning around for what's going on; I'm focusing on the dog. For the emotional response, he gives me a sense of protection. I feel that somebody is there watching my back, so to speak.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

He's not excited; you're not excited.

3:55 p.m.

MCpl Bill Nachuk

Yes, sir.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

The dog would respond to real danger.

3:55 p.m.

MCpl Bill Nachuk

Yes, sir. He just gives me that sense of security, and I know that someone has my back, so to speak. Over there, someone always has your back.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Can I ask you a quick question? In addition to that aspect of it that you talked about so well, would it be a benefit to be engaged with the dog as a handler?

For example, I'm just thinking of something I ran across by accident in my hometown. It was a group of people who were learning to train dogs to act as ground search animals. A woman from Alberta who was an expert trainer was there helping people and training them. Would a program that allowed you to play a role in perhaps having yourself trained at having some role with the dog, aside from it just being the companion and therapy animal, but actually having a relationship like that, be a benefit, do you think?

3:55 p.m.

MCpl Bill Nachuk

I am so happy you asked that question. That is actually our goal here, sir. Our goal in a perfect world is for Mr. Leonard—who graciously volunteered to help me, Geoff, and maybe a couple others—to train us so we could actually expand this to the other bases that we're on to be able to help other soldiers with their dogs.

That once again would be answering your question. Yes, that would be truly beneficial. He had volunteered to do this for us. I would love the honour and the opportunity to be able to take him up on that offer. It's a sense of repaying back.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

Bombardier Logue, thank you for telling your story. I know it's difficult to recount some aspects. When you were in the PRT, were you in Camp Nathan Smith?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Geoffry Logue

Sir, yes, I was. Prominently, first of all, I was the only regular force member on the civil-military cooperation team. I was looked to by all of the guys for help to ensure that things went smoothly as much as possible.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

That was pretty isolated from the Kandahar air base. Some members of the committee have been to Afghanistan and to Camp Nathan Smith, and they went there by Black Hawk helicopter and all that goes with it.

I was disturbed to hear you were sent home on a civilian aircraft—what, by yourself?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Geoffry Logue

Yes, sir.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Are you serious?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Geoffry Logue

Yes, sir.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

And there was no decompression or assistance along the way?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

That is quite disturbing.

Can you tell us when you came back? I know you joined the military and went to Afghanistan in 2003.

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual