National Defence Committee on Nov. 4th, 2014

[MGen Michael Hood]

Absolutely, Mr. Harris.

First of all with respect to a coalition campaign, there is a shared joint view of the targets, in this case in Iraq. Those are prioritized against the objectives that may be in play at the time, in coordination with Iraqis.

The tasking of missions, so for Canadian aircraft or any of our allied aircraft, is coordinated through CENTCOM, and targets are assigned against those missions.

Those then come into a Canadian chain of command. We have a theatre engagement authority in the air operation centre that is ultimately in charge of viewing that every target Canada would consider striking is, as a Canadian view, in line with our rules of engagement, which I'll get to.

If there is a risk of collateral damage or another risk in the conduct of that target, it is then pushed out of theatre to General Vance. He can approve a certain level of targets. If he can't approve something, it ultimately goes up to the Chief of the Defence Staff. That targeting chain is completely approved by Canada, and ultimately by the pilot when he releases the weapons.

We don't generally talk about rules of engagement writ large. Suffice it to say the chief approves specific rules of engagement that enable the disciplined use of force by Canadian Forces in this particular conduct.

There is a set of rules of engagement, which I'm not going to discuss right now, but I can tell you from an allied perspective that this is the most accurate conflict we've ever been party to. It's accurate because of the weapons we're using; it's accurate because of the limits we've put on collateral damage, and because we are taking such care, you haven't seen aircraft drop on every strike mission.

With respect to the targets and this specific one, it's clear that as a campaign objective, the flooding of the Euphrates or the denying of water to downstream is of great concern to the Iraqi government. Hence that target would come up and be prioritized within that period of time.

My army colleagues would tell you that engineering equipment is some of the most valuable and it is greatly protected on a battlefield. Hence in this case, it was viewed as a highly prioritized target by CENTCOM and then by the Canadian chain, and it was ultimately approved for a Canadian strike.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

From your explanation I understand the strategic value of the target, but one of the early critiques of the notion of air strikes in Iraq, particularly given the large number of countries that had signed up to do those, was that very soon you might “run out” of targets. Even General Lawson referred to that recently as well.

I take it that is not why the target we were talking about this weekend was chosen. Is that, though, a concern for you? You mentioned the fact that they have changed their tactics, that they are not going to be out in the open with tanks and Humvees or whatever open to attack.

Are we in danger of being ineffective in a very short period of time?

[MGen Michael Hood]

I don't think so at all, Mr. Harris. In fact the effect that air power has brought to this particular conflict is clearly evident.

I think it's accepted and would be expected by members here today that air power alone is not going to push back ISIL, but it is going to deny them freedom to manoeuvre. So whether we're actually striking deliberate targets or targets that may arise over the course of events, the deterrent effect of air power being there and the success the coalition is enjoying in those strikes is having real effects.

We've seen it. Perhaps you have seen some reporting on the news about the stabilization north of Mosul with peshmerga forces all supported by allied air power. Targets remain and will continue to remain, but we just have to adapt to the dispersed tactics that ISIL has evolved its campaign to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, General.

Mr. Chisu, go ahead, please, for seven minutes.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for their presentation.

General, I have a question for you. You were mentioning, of course, the engineering vehicles. They were armoured engineering vehicles and obviously operated by military personnel, right? Then you chose the targets.

[MGen Michael Hood]

The targets were engineering vehicles. I wouldn't be able to describe the level of armour; I haven't had a briefing that would allow me to say. But they were being used regularly by ISIL in the construction of a dam and defensive positions.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

As I have heard from literature and from research, ISIL has extremely powerful military capabilities and has used them to overtake huge swaths of territory in Iraq and Syria, as we see on the map. If ISIL is not degraded and ultimately destroyed by the coalition, what do you foresee ISIL being capable of? How much more damage could it inflict on Iraq and Syria if not confronted by the coalition air strikes that are going on?

[MGen Michael Hood]

I wouldn't want to hypothesize on what could have happened. But I think that if you look at the advance, just in the context of Iraq, that ISIL had enjoyed very quickly, this is of great concern; hence why so many regional partners have joined some of our more traditional partners and other NATO countries in this coalition. There's a shared view that ISIL presents a threat not only to Iraq and Syria but also to regional stability and certainly to many western countries as well as their reaches.

I think that the very rapid stand-up of a coalition speaks volumes to the risk that many countries feel that ISIL represented at the time and continues to represent today.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

In your opinion, what is the level of training ISIL got? They're moving very quickly and in quite large numbers. Where does their training originate? How are we assessing this threat?

[MGen Michael Hood]

What I've certainly seen and been briefed on is that....

You have to remember that operations in Syria against the Assad regime by both the Free Syrian Army and a conglomerate of ideologically motivated entities have been going on for almost two years. Those troops, those ISIL forces in Iraq, are battle-hardened. Add to that a number of senior former Iraqi military personnel, Baathist parties for example, disenfranchised from that. The assessment is that they're well led, well experienced, and very motivated. So they do represent a considerable threat to Iraq.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

When looking at their military capabilities, it does not appear that they currently have the capabilities to pose a threat to our aircraft. Is there a danger that they will have this kind of equipment?

[MGen Michael Hood]

We take every step in operations to limit that threat, both through the use of integral defensive equipment on our aircraft and on the tactics, techniques, and procedures we do.

I'm not going to talk specifically about what ISIL may or may not have. Suffice it to say that in every step of our operations, the mitigation of any risk to our personnel is first and foremost on our mind.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Having been in Afghanistan, I was concerned about the MANPADS. I have seen that ISIL has MANPADS and all the other heavy military assets, such as tanks. That will eventually be a problem for the coalition. They'll be a bigger threat.

I think the air strikes are having an effect on ISIL.

[MGen Michael Hood]

It's a threat we take very seriously, as I said. We will try to ensure that the aircraft are equipped to deal with those risks or that we plan mission parameters that ensure to the greatest extent possible.... I think it's important to say, though, that any part of our contribution is not risk free. There's no way we can mitigate that risk to zero. It is a dangerous theatre of operation. But we put the welfare of our men and women in uniform first and foremost.

[RAdm Gilles Couturier, Director General, International Security Policy, Department of National Defence]

The other thing I would add to that, if I may, is that the coalition puts a lot of emphasis on trying to locate, from an intelligence perspective, any indication that those kinds of capabilities are falling into those hands.

Yes, it's a great concern for us in Canada, but it's an overall concern for the coalition. We're certainly putting a lot of effort into understanding and getting as much warning as we can of that kind of capability getting into their hands.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

When you're operating in this theatre of operation, do you also have different types of aircraft, the French, the Portuguese? Do you think that the training that the air force had in Romania with the coalition was helpful?

[MGen Michael Hood]

I think any training that adds to the capability of our personnel is very valuable. I would certainly put the professionalism and capability of our CF-18 pilots up against any member of the coalition, without a doubt, and I say that very sincerely.

[RAdm Gilles Couturier]

It also speaks to the interoperability that we have as we go through all of the exercises that we do all year long. The fact that we can now operate together in a kind of operational setting speaks volumes about the training we've been doing.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

What kind of military strategies are ISIL using? You mentioned that they are now dispersing in small units. What is the danger, from the military point of view, for us in future operations?

[MGen Michael Hood]

Iraqi security forces are going to certainly have some challenges moving forward against a very determined adversary, which is motivated through barbarous ideology that in fact inflicts terror on those who are under some.... Their dispersion presents a different problem for ground forces to deal with, but I'm pretty confident that given the time, support, and training, Iraqi security forces will be able to prevail.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, General.

That is your time, Mr. Chisu.

Ms. Murray, please.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you.

General, are you able to advise us as to the projected budget for this six-month mission?

[MGen Michael Hood]

I'm not, Ms. Murray.

The chief financial officer of the department is in the process of capturing these, and I understand that these will be reported to Parliament at an appropriate time, likely in some months.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Will it be before the six months are up?

Can you give us an estimate of when that will be available?

[MGen Michael Hood]

No, I'm unable to do that.