National Defence Committee on Nov. 25th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Ms. Murray, that's time.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

The $2.4 million—

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Ms. Murray, please, that's your time.

We'll now go to the second round of questions five-minute slots beginning with Mr. Williamson.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, it's good to see you and your officials here today.

I see that DND is requesting $652 million for the “Funding for the sustainment and operational readiness of the Canadian Armed Forces, in support of the ongoing implementation of the Canada First Defence Strategy”. The supplementary estimates (B) note that DND will use these funds mainly to:

...support operational readiness for Maritime, Land and Aerospace efforts. This includes incremental operational and sustainment requirements of Chinook 147’s, fleet maintenance of the submarines, frigates, aircraft and light armoured vehicles, infrastructure maintenance and repair, as well as training and personnel support.

Could you explain why base funds provided to the main estimates are not sufficient to cover CAF readiness, particularly training as well as equipment infrastructure maintenance and repair, and why more funds are required for this purpose today?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We want to make sure that we get it right, Mr. Williamson. What you saw in the main estimates are what our expectations are of the procurement costs, the cost of maintaining the services that we have, and what you have here is, I believe, an accurate indication as to what it is we are going to have to pay out to make sure that we maintain that capability and readiness that is absolutely essential for the Canadian Armed Forces. This is done through supplementary estimates and occasionally I believe sometimes there are supplementary estimates (C) as well, because we want to make sure we get it right.

Again, it underscores this government's commitment to investing in our armed forces, and to making sure that they have the equipment they need to get the job done on behalf of this country. We expect a lot of the members of our armed forces. They have always delivered on behalf of this country, and they have delivered on behalf of people abroad, but there have to be resources put into that for them to do that. As those costs become fixed we put them into the estimates, or again, depending on when they arise, into the main estimates. I think it's important that we do this and I'm hoping that this will have the support of all members here at this committee.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Very good, thank you.

We talked earlier about the Halifax-class frigates and the modernization they're going through. You answered Mr. Chisu's question around that. This is a local issue. I think it's important to myself and Mr. Chisholm. It's not really so much part of the supplementary estimates, but I'd be curious to just get a broad overview of the naval shipbuilding operations in Halifax, as to how they're going, are we getting that right, and is that on track to proceed.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think we're getting it right and I, needless to say, I watch this very carefully. That's one of the projects that I have been very impressed with. To see the updated technology that is now a part of these modernized frigates is extremely impressive. I saw them and I was in a number of them before this was done and I had explained to me the technology that they have. I can't tell you how impressed I am to see what the new configuration looks like today, and what they are capable of. This gives Canada a world-class capability, and the Americans and others are watching very carefully what it is that we are doing there.

But to answer your question, yes, they are on track. I think it is very important, quite frankly, to Halifax that this shipbuilding continues. They've been in the business of building ships in Halifax and Nova Scotia for a very long time and this builds on that wonderful tradition they have. One of the things that I think would impress you is the number of spinoffs that there are to other businesses, to other companies, which benefit from this. So we're going to continue. The Arctic offshore patrol ships are also part of the forward planning. I was quite impressed and I believe this is all money very well worth spending.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

That's the end of your time, Mr. Williamson.

Mr. Brahmi, you have the floor.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Looking at the current activities of the Canadian Armed Forces overall, we see that two major operations are under way. One, Operation Reassurance, is a show of force in Ukraine, and the other, Operation Impact, is a war operation to bomb targets in Iraq. I would like the minister to explain a few things in that regard.

I want to talk about the so-called incremental, or marginal, costs resulting from the fact that our forces are deployed outside the country. I gather that the incremental costs do not appear in supplementary estimates (B). Do you plan to include those costs in supplementary estimates (C)? I will explain what I mean. Supplementary estimates (B) run until the end of December, whereas supplementary estimates (C) represent the funding and votes needed until the fiscal year ends on March 31.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

As the costs become apparent, we will report them in the usual manner. Operation Reassurance isn't directly to Ukraine. I just want to make sure that's well understood. I indicated that in the air we are part of the Baltic air-policing mission that is ongoing at the moment. We have troops in Poland. We have HMCS Toronto in the Mediterranean on NATO deployment, and you can be assured that for all of these costs, with these supplementary estimates, we are now at well over $19 billion for the Canadian Armed Forces. As these costs become apparent...and I hope they're going to get your support, because we have to have these funds—

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a question I'd like to ask.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

—so our armed forces can conduct those important missions that you just described.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Chair, may I please ask the minister a question?

He said it was not possible to provide an estimate of the costs of the air strikes in Iraq. But we carried out similar flights in Libya. I would like to know why the costs of the Libyan air strikes can't be extrapolated to produce a cost estimate for the flights in Iraq. The planes and bombs are the same, are they not? I would like the minister to provide that information.

When I am in my riding, my constituents ask me how it is that the U.S. army is able to produce a cost estimate, for instance, $7 million per day, but the Canadian army cannot. How is it that Canada's army is unable to provide that cost estimate? Is the financial branch of Canada's army inferior to its U.S. counterpart?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

With respect to the operation that took place in Mali, all the costs were tabled, and a complete description of everything money was spent on was tabled, because the mission of course was completed. I thank you for your interest in what is taking place in Iraq. As you know, our air strike mission began about seven weeks ago and we have authorization for a six-month mission. I would reassure those people that the mission is at the beginning stage. The first quarter of the deployment is authorized by the government and supported by Parliament. You can tell them with pride that we are putting over $19 billion, with these estimates, into those Canadian Armed Forces to make sure they have that capability, and you can be assured that the government will continue to make sure—

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

But I can't—

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

—they have the funds that they need.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

I can tell them that the government is requesting nearly $1 billion in additional funding to close out the fiscal year. I cannot tell them, however, why the Canadian army is not able to produce a cost estimate of our operation in Iraq. After all, we are at war in Iraq and the U.S. army is able to provide those costs. I cannot reassure them with the explanation you are giving me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Quickly, Mr. Brahmi.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

I cannot tell Canadians why Canada's army is not financially equipped to provide an estimate that the U.S. army can.

Thank you.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, I want you to reassure those constituents who are stopping you and asking you about this that just as in the past, all the costs will be made available to the public, and they will know exactly how much these costs are. I think you should point out to them that many of them are fixed costs. For example, we own the CF-18s. We don't have to borrow equipment as we have sometimes in the past. We now have the capability of moving equipment, men and women, out of these sites, so you can tell them that is part of what we expend on our military.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Opitz, you have five minutes, please.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you all for being here today, and to my old boss, General Thibault, thank you, sir.

First of all, from reservists, thank you very much, Minister, for following through on your commitment to reservists in your announcement today on being able to top up employers to help the reservists deploy. As we know, on most missions, approximately 25%, give or take, are reservists, which is very important to the Canadian Armed Forces in our ability to carry out our missions abroad. Reservists step forward, and they make sure they contribute to that, and they do a professional, outstanding job. By doing so, you're also helping great organizations such as Canada Company's Captains of Industry, which originally started a lot of this as interested individuals and has carried that on, and tremendous groups such as Treble Victor Group and True Patriot Love Foundation, which just yesterday donated $5 million for the care of many of our veterans.

Thank you, on their behalf, for that.

For a former reservist, as you pointed out, it's very gratifying to know that program's in place, because trying to get.... As a former commander of a unit, I know it's very difficult to sometimes raise the strength to send out on deployments, and this makes it easier for reservists to be able to deploy, to do that job, and assure that employer that they're going to get back, and be assured they're going to get that employer back.

Just shifting quickly to Operation Reassurance, I have spoken to some troops who have done this. There are some intangibles that have come through this operation, and besides the very important assurance to our Baltic neighbours, in particular, Poland, where they're positioned, this is something that turns out to be tremendous training for our troops in terms of wings exchange, some of the cross-cultural training that they do with the Poles, with Lithuanians and other forces, and the British and the Americans who are stationed there as well. This is something that develops our troops professionally abroad. That's an impact we're having there right now.

I talked to a Polish three-star last night—who, by the way, learned his English here in Canada—and we are reaping the benefits of those relationships because Canada helped many of those Baltic states through the Canadian Forces College, through language training and through other professional development training, which helps our forces today to interact and interoperate with those Baltic states. So I'm very pleased that this is happening, because our troops are actually having a very rewarding experience in participating in those operations.

Sir, we didn't talk about today's LAVs and the upgrading of the LAVs within the estimates. Can you describe to us what the value is to our troops in upgrading those LAVs?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, you've covered a number of areas, Colonel, and maybe I should check with your former boss as to how you did on that.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I'm going to get—

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

My interaction with you, Colonel—