National Defence Committee on Nov. 28th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Good morning, colleagues. I call this meeting to order. Welcome to all.

We are joined this morning by the Minister of National Defence to assist us in consideration of supplementary estimates (B).

Welcome, Minister Nicholson.

The minister is joined by a number of officials: Deputy Minister Richard Fadden; Senior Associate Deputy Minister Michael Martin; Kevin Lindsey, the assistant deputy minister, chief financial officer, finance and corporate services; Rear-Admiral Patrick Finn, the chief of staff of the materiel group; Lieutenant-General Guy Thibault, the vice-chief of the defence staff; and John Forster, chief of Communications Security Establishment Canada.

Again, welcome, Minister. If you could, please take 10 minutes with your opening remarks.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Minister of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'm here today, of course, to discuss the supplementary estimates (B) for the year 2013-14. This is, as you may know, my first appearance before this committee since I was appointed Minister of National Defence in July.

When the Prime Minister approached me to take on the defence portfolio, I was honoured. Like all Canadians, I'm grateful for the incredible work that our armed forces and their civilian partners do for us each and every day. I've come to understand the remarkable scope of the department's responsibilities.

DND faces unique resource challenges.

We have the biggest budget in government.

We are the biggest government employer, with approximately 92,000 full-time employees, including over 67,000 men and women in the armed forces.

Support by an integrated defence team consists of a dedicated and committed cadre of public servants as well, a team that does everything from financial analysis, logistics, and procurement to human resources, all with the goal of supporting our men and women in uniform.

DND holds a large number of properties across Canada to support the Canadian Armed Forces, adding up to approximately 47% of federally owned buildings—some 21,000 buildings. That translates into approximately five million acres of land, 5,500 kilometres of roads, and 3,000 kilometres of water, storm, and sewer pipes. That's without even mentioning any ships, aircraft, armoured vehicles, trucks, and so on.

But despite these huge numbers, what has struck me most is the complexity and breadth of the tasks that we entrust to the Canadian Armed Forces every single day, and how they deliver, when and where it counts, as we saw in Alberta during the summer floods, or training Afghan forces as part of our commitment to our NATO partners and the Afghan government, or helping save lives and bringing emergency relief in the immediate aftermath of disasters, as is the case with the typhoon in the Philippines.

It was my honour to personally see off members of the Disaster Assistance Response Team, the DART, when they left for the Philippines within days of that devastating storm. We now have more than 315 Canadian Armed Forces members there, including engineers, medical personnel, helicopter crews, air transport and maintenance crews, logistics personnel, and liaison officers. They have purified approximately 56,000 litres of water and treated almost 2,000 people in need of medical care. They have delivered approximately 6,700 pounds of food on behalf of non-governmental organizations, and they've cleared 113 kilometres of roads. Mr. Chair, simply put, they have saved lives and worn their uniforms with pride.

But to be in a position to do all this requires significant and sustained investment. Mr. Chairman, with the best will in the world, you don't get to the Philippines carrying hundreds of personnel and tonnes of equipment and supplies just with good intentions. It takes a strategic aircraft like our C-17 Globemasters. It's why, since 2006 and the development of the Canada First defence strategy, the government has worked to modernize our core equipment fleets.

It's also a matter of upgrading our infrastructure.

The government is also working to improve care for our ill and injured military personnel and to ensure that our military is ready and able to respond whenever the need arises, but to do this, Mr. Chair, in a way that's in line with our government's fiscal responsibilities.

That's why in October I met with the entire leadership of the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces. We had a full and frank discussion regarding the future. From this meeting we launched the major initiative to bolster front-line investments by reducing inefficiencies, streamlining business processes, and reducing corporate overhead within Canada's defence organization. The process of defence renewal will help national defence continue to build a modern, first-class military, ready to take on the challenges of tomorrow.

As I discussed with the department's leadership in that meeting and others, our focus must be on achieving clear accountability, improving processes, and developing a stronger culture of innovation, a culture that will ultimately ensure that we maintain the support and trust of Canadians. We are finding savings that will be reinvested toward the continued modernization of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Our focus is on front-line capability.

We put front-line capabilities first because Canadians have high expectations for their armed forces. Not only do Canadians expect a military that is ready to take on challenges down the road, but they expect value for their tax dollars, and that's what they're getting.

Mr. Chair, in our supplementary estimates we are requesting just over $1 billion in requirements, 50% of which is a result of the settlement of the Manuge case, a special circumstance. Of these funds requested, almost half are absorbed through funding that was previously appropriated by Parliament.

In the details of the estimates you will see that they support the training and readiness of Canadian Armed Forces and that they enable our shipbuilding strategy and commitment to the north to move forward by providing funds to design the AOPS and establish the appropriate infrastructure. They will highlight our ongoing cooperation with other departments and government-wide programs with regard to scientific research, security, diplomacy, and defence issues.

Mr. Chair, as we continue through the fiscal year, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces will constantly monitor our fiscal requirements in order to ensure value for taxpayers' dollars. We're keenly aware of the importance of balancing our requirements with the need to protect Canada's fiscal health.

Mr. Chair, we all have a role to play in this, and I'm proud to say that the Department of National Defence is doing its part. We are finding, and will continue to work toward finding, more efficient and better ways of doing our business.

I'm sure the committee might have some questions on the specifics of the supplementary estimates package, and along with the team I have here with me today, I am pleased to listen to the committee's comments and to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Mr. Nicholson.

We'll begin our first round of questioning of seven minutes each with Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Canadians want to know that when we send our soldiers overseas and they are injured, either visibly or non-visibly, we are going to take care of them when they come home.

Minister, a key priority of our government has been the care of the ill and injured. Of the $400 million allocated to supporting the implementation of the Canada First defence strategy, are there any funds dedicated to the care of our ill and injured? If so, can you outline why the support for our ill and injured is such a necessary aspect of the Canada First defence strategy?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

In the supplementary estimates, an amount of approximately $25.6 million is being requested, and that is, of course, in addition to the increased commitment and investment by the government to ensure that our personnel and their families receive the care, services, and support they deserve. The Canadian Forces ombudsman recently acknowledged that military families receive more support than ever, and the issue has been elevated to a top institutional priority—and so it should be. There's no question about this, that we have to do whatever we can.

In your studies you will see, of course, that compared to our NATO allies, the Canadian Armed Forces has the greatest ratio of mental health services to members of our armed forces. Annual health care expenditures have increased by over $100 million since 2006, bringing up the expenditures to approximately $420 million.

We have a great responsibility to do what we can to support ill and injured Canadian soldiers, and to support veterans, of course. Again, I think it's important that we have this kind of commitment. It's not just a question of doing more than our NATO allies. As you can see, we are very good. It's the men and women on an individual basis who they try to reach out to and help. It's not an easy task, particularly when you are coming out of a combat activity such as members of our armed forces saw in Afghanistan. There are stresses and strains that result from such work and the subsequent challenges that presents to many of the individuals who are in our armed forces; nonetheless, I think it's important to note that we increase the number of health care professionals who are involved with our men and women.

Thank you for asking that. There is an allotment within the supplementary estimates (B) for that. Again, it's an important issue and we're committing to ensuring that our members get the support they should have.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

In the interests of time, I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Williamson, so he'll have a chance to question the minister.

This will be a brief question.

The world has not yet experienced an act of cyberterrorism. To the minister, would you please explain how the funding shown in the supplementary estimates (B) for the Communications Security Establishment Canada is being used to protect Canadians from such a threat?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes. Again, the Minister of Public Safety has led the development of Canada's cybersecurity strategy, as you know, in 2010, and coordinates the implementation, but the defence portfolio also plays a role in ensuring Canada's cybersecurity. This is done through the unique expertise of CSEC, which provides advice, guidance, and services to help protect electronic information and infrastructure. Yes, there are collective threats to our cybersecurity, as you are aware, but we remain committed to strengthening our cybersecurity while ensuring that Canadians' fundamental privacy rights are protected.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Mr. Williamson, you have about two minutes and 45 seconds.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, it's really good to see you.

Before my question, I actually just want to take a moment to congratulate you, your department, and your officials for their rapid response to the chaotic situation in the Philippines. It was remarkable to see government assets being moved quickly into theatre, and I think taxpayers can know that if the Government of Canada is going to spend multi-billions of dollars on this type of military hardware, it's going to be put to good use.

In that same vein, while Canadians are a generous people and have no problem with helping people around the world, they also want to know that when there's trouble on our shores Canada is ready to respond. Here I'm speaking about our search and rescue operations. Could you tell us, please, what you're doing, what the government is doing, to ensure that our search and rescue operations are ready on standby to be there when Canadians might need those services along our long, long coast?

Thank you.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You've touched on a very important aspect of what the members of our armed forces.... I mentioned in my opening remarks the support Canada's Armed Forces provide whenever there's an emergency in this country. I pointed out what took place in Calgary and the surrounding areas and how our armed forces were there and ready and able to help.

Search and rescue, again, is an important and vital component of where members of our national forces assist. I don't want to say we have the longest coastline in the world, but it's got to be pretty close to it. It's a huge undertaking that we have, and there are constant challenges. So, yes, improving the ability of Canada to respond when there is a challenge is one of the vitally important aspects of what we do and what our armed forces do.

Just this past summer, I was with the Prime Minister on King William Island, and much of the briefings and the discussions that we had took place with respect to the ability of our armed forces, in conjunction with the Canadian Coast Guard and others, to respond to the challenges we have. These are unique challenges that we have, but again, I was very impressed by both the level of readiness and the commitment of the members of our armed forces to do that.

As you know, there is a quadrennial review that will be tabled soon on that, and I encourage you, of course, to have a look at that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Minister. We've reached the end of that questioning period.

Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister, to our committee and to your new role as Minister of National Defence.

I'm going to start with a general question. You're coming here looking for about a billion dollars of new money, yet the consistent reports from your department are that you don't spend the money you have. Last year, for example, $2.3 billion less than what was allocated was spent, and going back every year for the last five or six years, there's been in excess of a billion dollars of money not spent. I guess the first question is, why do you need any money at all if you can't spend what you have? Are you prepared to acknowledge that you have a problem in your department with the inability to either budget properly or manage properly?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I don't know if I'd consider it a problem if they don't spend all the money that is given to them. Just to be clear, it's not a billion dollars of new money that's in this vote. It's approximately, I believe, a third of this. I'll ask Kevin Lindsey to have a go at this. But some of the money, again...and I'm sure you would agree with me that we want all parts of the department to act as carefully as possible, to spend money when it's necessary, when it's appropriate.

That being said, I'll ask Kevin Lindsey to address some of the specifics of your question.

[Kevin Lindsey, Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Corporate Services, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Chair, the apparent public accounts lapse for DND in 2012-13 was $1.45 billion. I think it's important to note, however—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Would that be the subtraction from the $2.3 billion for what you could actually keep and carry over?

[Kevin Lindsey]

Sir, that's the difference between what our spending authorities were and what we spent.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Not $2.3 billion....

[Kevin Lindsey]

It's $1.45 billion.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

The Parliamentary Budget Officer is wrong on that?

[Kevin Lindsey]

I have not seen that number from the PBO, sir, but with respect to public accounts, we spent $1.45 billion less than our spending authorities.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

The principle still stands.

[Kevin Lindsey]

That amount is composed of the following, because there are some important considerations that drive that number.

First of all, we had about a billion dollars in spending authority last year to settle the Manuge case. Unfortunately, because of timing issues, we were only able to spend less than $500 million of that amount. As part of that $1.45 billion, $506 million is associated with the Manuge settlement, which will be spent, in fact, this year.

In addition, because the budget was tabled after the main estimates for 2012–13, there were budget measures that served to reduce the amount of spending authority that Parliament had given us. Included in that $1.45 billion is a further $210 million in spending authority reductions associated with budget 2012.

Further, there's about $250 million associated with capital expenditure that did not occur because of delays in the delivery of the equipment.

All of which to say, Mr. Chair, that there's about $1.1 billion included in that $1.45 billion associated with reductions to our spending authority for reasons that were beyond our control.

At the end of the day, our operating budget carry-forward, an indicator you may be familiar with from other departments, was $356 million, representing 1.7% of our spending authorities, well in line, I think, with other government departments.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Mr. Minister, to follow up on Ms. Gallant's questions regarding the care of ill and injured soldiers, we have a grave concern about the number of suicides occurring among soldiers who have been deployed and come back from deployment. We've had reports of two in the last couple of days.

We also have identified a problem with respect to the military's investigation of suicides. The latest figures show that 50 boards of inquiry, which are supposed to look into these matters to find out what happened, what lessons might be learned, and what things might need to be changed, are still outstanding, some as old as 2008.

Can you tell us why this is an issue and a problem, and why we aren't getting these reports?

We've got the Military Police Complaints Commission looking into one of them, and we're giving them more money here in these estimates, but we still have this serious problem that is tragic in the extreme.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

The whole question of the individuals who commit suicide, who are not able to adapt to life, in many cases post-Afghanistan, is very worrisome. While the ombudsman for the Department of National Defence has acknowledged that military families receive more support than ever, and it's been elevated to a top institutional priority, we all must continue to concern ourselves with these difficult and sometimes tragic incidents.

With respect to the two individuals who committed suicide, this is, needless to say, a tragedy. The Surgeon General is looking into this, and I anticipate the report on that as soon as possible. That being said, you and I and everyone here, of course, send out our sympathies and our prayers to the families of these individuals for what they suffer and will continue to suffer.

That being said, before becoming defence minister, I was supportive of the Joint Personnel Support Unit. I think these are steps in the right direction. We've almost doubled the number of health care personnel to work with the members of our armed forces. The increased budgetary commitments to health care and health care issues are all steps in the right direction. We don't want anybody to take their life, so we have to constantly look at these issues to ensure that every possible effort is made to give these individuals the health care support they need, and the support from the armed forces.