Evidence of meeting #20 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mills.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Avrim Lazar  President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada
Catherine Cobden  Vice-President, Economics, Forest Products Association of Canada

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon, everyone. I hope everyone had a good weekend in their constituencies.

We're here today to do a study on the state of the forest industry in Canada. This is a follow-up session from quite an extensive study we did about three or four years ago, at a predecessor of this committee. It's important to follow up when we've done a major study, so that's what this is.

We have with us today, from the Forest Products Association of Canada, Avrim Lazar, who is the president and chief executive officer. Welcome to you, and to Catherine Cobden, who is the vice-president of economics. Thank you both very much for coming here today to do this session. We're looking forward to your presentation of around 15 minutes. Then we'll get directly to questions and comments.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Lazar.

3:35 p.m.

Avrim Lazar President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Thanks to all of you for inviting us. I know that after a long hard session, and with Christmas being, what, 20 to 30 minutes away...? Holding an extra special meeting at the end of the day is an act of generosity on your part, so we really appreciate it.

Canada's forest industry, especially all the workers across the country and the communities that depend upon the industry, appreciates it when parliamentarians show their concern for the industry. Certainly when I travel around the country and meet with the various communities, that's one of the questions I'm almost always asked: does anyone in Ottawa care about us?

Wherever I go, I can very happily say yes, there are many MPs, on both sides of the House, who really care about the industry. The opposition is asking questions and the government is trying to present initiatives to help us, so the industry is on the mind of parliamentarians, and that means a lot to the industry.

As many of you will know, we are now 2% of Canada's GDP. We account for 240,000 direct jobs. You can at least double that, maybe more, if you count the indirect jobs. It's employment for an awful lot of people. We sustain the economic backbone of 200 communities across the country. This is good news, but it's also difficult, because when the industry takes a downturn, those 200 communities suffer very deeply.

Many of you who represent forest industry communities will know that when a mill closes, it's not just a loss of a few jobs. It's the loss of the economic foundation, the economic backbone, of a whole community. The taxi driver has no business. The lunch counter has no business. The cleaning service has no business. The grocery store finds that no one's coming in. You can't go and work for your cousin because he doesn't have a job.

These one-industry towns suffer very, very deeply when a mill closes, and over the last several years the industry has had a difficult time. We've lost many jobs. Many mills have closed. During this time we were tempted to think that we were suffering through a perfect storm: a high Canadian dollar, the collapse of the U.S. housing market, a low demand for paper, and high competition from elsewhere. But as we began to go through these very difficult waters, it became obvious that maybe this is not a storm; maybe this is a changed climate. If you're sailing through a terrible storm, the right thing to do is to batten the hatches, hold on tight, have great fortitude and patience, and clear sailing is going to come. But if it's a changed climate, if it's a structural rather than a cyclical change, then holding on tight just isn't enough; holding on tight just means you're going to sink.

So what you have to do is gird your loins, look through the storm, and ask, “How has the world changed and how do we have to change what we're doing to be able to survive?”

Now, it's true that some things will get better. The demand for wood will return and the Americans will eventually start building houses again. I'd like to say that I know when the global economy will find its feet again, but apparently none of us knows that.

But it's also true that some things are going to stay difficult for us. We are going to have competitors growing trees in South America, where the conditions are better. The global demand for paper may go up, but the North American demand is going to continue to fall. As well, the Canadian dollar is likely to stay high.

Also, as in many industries, the conditions for success are hugely demanding. Pretending that we're suffering from a cycle or a bad time, as opposed to understanding that we have to respond to a changed circumstance that will be permanent.... That is absolutely necessary. When I was sitting in on these meetings trying to discuss what to do, it was very hard for many of the CEOs leading the companies to get beyond the tough times and the survival strategies, but the industry pulled itself together, both at the company level and all the way across.

We set ourselves four objectives for restructuring, transforming, and setting new sales levels so that the industry would be able to survive past these times.

The first challenge that we set for ourselves was to increase productivity. Of course, this is nothing new. In a commodity business you have to become more productive. For us, it was do or die. Those companies that could not quickly improve productivity simply shut down. We now have labour productivity that is 20% higher than the Canadian average. Our wood sector is one of the only sectors that is outperforming its U.S. counterparts.

The second thing we said we had to do was to become more diversified in our markets. We knocked on China's door and we knocked on India's door—we even went to our competitors—and we started selling newsprint into Brazil, lumber into China, and pulp into India. We've become Canada's most successful exporter. No one exports more to India or China than Canada's forest industry does. Since 2000, our exports to China have gone up 46 times. I was almost about to say 46%, but it's 4,600%. This was not a casual thing. This was a huge effort.

In addition to becoming more productive and learning how to export more aggressively outside the U.S., we also realized that we had to extract more value from every tree. If the Brazilians could go into their backyard and harvest a tree that they had just grown in seven years, and we had to lumber halfway across the wilderness—to harvest a tree and take it across Canada's muskeg and then process it—we needed to extract more value from every tree. We started to experiment with the extraction of bioenergy, bioplastics, and biofuels so there would be zero waste. Every single bit of the tree would be used, whether it's the chips, lumber, sawdust, or bark. We have, through R and D work and through experiments and new innovations, begun to become not just the pulp, paper, and lumber industry, but the pulp, paper, lumber, energy, bioplastics, and biopharmaceuticals industry. In other words, we have joined the bioeconomy.

With increased productivity, diversified exports, and more value extracted from every tree, the last thing we had to do was secure the western front. For us, the western front meant the constant attacks by the environmentalists. We had a bad brand in terms of environmental practices. We've been doing our work. We have more certified forests than any other place in the world does. We've improved our forest practices and reduced our greenhouse gases by more than seven times the Kyoto target—though I guess that target doesn't matter anymore.

We've gone to almost 60% renewable energy in our mills. But we were not getting the credit we deserved. What we did was something totally radical. It has never been done before in Canada or anywhere in the world on this scale. We said to the environmental groups, “Do you guys want to do business?” There are 21 companies—big, multinational companies—and nine radical environmental groups, including Greenpeace and ForestEthics, and the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society. We all signed the boreal agreement, forming a partnership for preserving the jobs in the forest, and at the same time preserving ecosystem values.

These four paths—making productivity jumps, diversifying our market, extracting more value, and changing the game in terms of environmental reputation—made up our survival strategy. We're not just talking about it; we're well on the way to doing it. We need to continue to do many of these things.

That's about us. What about you? What about government? Faced with the same circumstances, governments have three choices. You have constituents, and you have communities suffering mightily. You'll hear some of my members, some of the unions, and a lot of the mayors saying, “Jump in and save us. We need you, government. You saved the car manufacturers. You have to save us, too.” And the temptation would be to try to subsidize, to support the status quo, to stop the bleeding, to stop the mills from closing. That's a lot of what you will have heard.

A second possible response would be to say this is a free market; the best thing we can do for these businesses, the best thing we can do for these towns, is let the marketplace prevail. The trouble with that response is that other governments aren't doing it. The United States, the South American governments—especially Brazil—Europe, and even China are investing heavily in their industry. So to say this is a free market would be to pretend that other governments are working within a free market. This would doom Canada's forest industry, because we could not compete with foreign governments.

So choice one was to subsidize the status quo; choice two, laissez-faire. The third choice was to develop a creative approach to supporting the industry, an approach grounded in transformation as opposed to the status quo, an approach whose objective is to accelerate the industry's adaptation and change process rather than to support the industry while it holds on tight. If this were a cyclical change, if this were a storm instead of a changed climate, I would have been here lobbying for support to get us through the storm. But because we knew it was a structural shift, that the climate wasn't going to come back nice and friendly but was going to stay fiercely competitive, what we came in and lobbied for was help to change the ship, to change our approach, to transform the industry under the four headings I've just shared with you.

To be fair to the government, that's exactly how they responded—with investments in R and D that helped us extract more value from every tree, investments in exports that helped us export to China and India, investments in bringing new technology to market readiness, and investments in helping us with our environmental reputation.

To be fair to the reality in which we work, the number of investments, while significant, are not as much as many of our competitors have gotten in other countries. So our basic message is that government is doing the right thing, but this is no time to slow it down, especially now when the economy is, let's say, on delicate feet. The question that all parliamentarians have to be wrestling with is whether this is a time to simply control the deficit or whether this is a time for massive stimulus. Where is the balance between these two?

Our advice, our recommendation, is modest stimulus. But make it very smart stimulus. Don't just throw money at problems. Invest it strategically. Our view is that the most strategic investment lies in focusing on those things that transform the industry, things that support the change, such as export development, R and D, environmental reputation, and green transformation.

That's what we're hoping to see from the next budget. More important, this is what we're hoping to see over many years. We're hoping the government will join us in understanding the long-term dynamics of transformation and play its part in supporting the industry's change of process.

I could go on for a very long time, but I won't.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you for your presentation.

We'll go now to questions and comments, starting with Mr. Harris.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Avrim and Catherine, thank you for joining us again. It's always a pleasure to have you come and update us on the forest industry as your organization sees it. Because you are the major organization in the forest industry in Canada, we appreciate your input.

I want to start out by complimenting you on a couple of things. First, in the deep dark days of the perfect storm, when everyone was asking the government for bailouts and handouts, the forest industry was probably the worst off and never at any time did you come with your hand out looking for funding. As a matter of fact, which so impressed me, you didn't even let the words “depression” or “recession” cross your lips. Instead you coined the phrase—and I think it was you, Avrim—that the forest industry was in a period of transformation. Indeed, you were. You knew a lot more about it than we did at that time when you started with that.

The other thing I want to say is that of all the industries in Canada—and I might be a little biased, considering where my riding is—that have worked with the government to develop new technologies and new ways of becoming more productive, etc., I don't think any industry has demonstrated a more visible success than the forest industry over the last five or six years. Everywhere we look we see leading-edge technology in our pulp mills, our sawmills, and our fibreboard mills. It's working, and when you talk about government investing, I think we've done really well. So congrats on that.

You talked earlier about the western front when you were describing the environmental activists. This is always challenging. I want to talk about the southern front and the constant challenges we've had from the lumber folks south of the border, the coalition of lumber producers. Over the years, despite having a softwood lumber agreement with the U.S., there have been so many attempts to try to confound our exports to the U.S. For the most part we've successfully fought them.

But we have another softwood lumber agreement coming up in the near future. I want to go back to the one we signed just a few years ago. Our friends across from us in Parliament are very quick to condemn that agreement and blame that agreement for the hard time the forest industry went through. We of course don't agree with that.

I wonder if I could have your view of the benefits of that softwood lumber agreement, and also maybe just a bit about what you see we should be looking for in the one that's coming up.

I'll stop there.

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Avrim Lazar

Thank you for those kind remarks.

The softwood lumber dispute is one of the more, shall we say, aggravating elements of North America's free trade zone. Its roots are fairly simple: we have one marketplace and two systems. In the U.S., trees and forests are owned privately, while they're owned publicly in Canada. The misunderstandings that arise when a public resource competes with a privately owned resource in the same marketplace creates huge amounts of suspicion and has resulted in one softwood dispute after another.

At the time that the softwood lumber agreement was signed by the government, the industry received it with what could be described as mixed reactions. Our ability to trade...we had tariffs, we had quotas, and we weren't universally generous in responding to it. Time has proven that the government was right and that those of us who were complaining were wrong. Over the last several years, if we had not had this softwood lumber agreement, we would have lost far more jobs. We would have been in much bigger trouble with the Americans.

At a time of very low prices, the number of means by which the U.S. could take action, including things like anti-dumping, are far greater. The stability and freedom from random attacks that agreement provided us actually saved our bacon. I wish I could say that everyone in the industry had figured it out when you signed it, but the truth of the matter is that government got it right. The industry is now of the view that given the continued market uncertainty, we would be best off with it being extended by at least two years.

I want to be very clear. There's almost nobody in the industry who likes the agreement. We don't like it, but it's a heck of a lot better than not having it. We are free traders; we'd prefer free and open competition. But the sad truth of the matter is that in Washington the people who work at monitoring Canadian activities and supporting the U.S. softwood industry comprise the biggest lobby. They have perfected the technique of harassing us, and that harassment has cost us huge amounts of money and huge amounts of business confidence. Having this certain regime—even though we'd prefer free trading—for another two years is what the industry has been asking for from coast to coast.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Avrim, last year there were some optimistic predictions about the price of lumber from one of your members in particular, which I really liked to hear, but we haven't gotten there as quickly as we thought. As a matter of fact, the lumber prices are holding pretty much around—I don't want know what they are today—the $200 range.

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Avrim Lazar

I don't look at lumber prices after noon because it disturbs my sleep. It's sort of like having coffee.

3:55 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Those lumber prices are 150% dependent on the U.S. market, or are they not? Do you see that changing ever, over the next ten years?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Avrim Lazar

Yes. Remember, I started with fancy talk about storms and climates, otherwise known as cyclical changes and structural changes. The collapse of the U.S. housing market is cyclical. Maybe they won't build mega-houses ever again. I don't know. So far, I don't see the shift in U.S. culture. But they will continue to live primarily in family dwellings, and they'll continue to build them using timber framing.

This means that you can pretty well predict the demand for lumber in North America if you look at population. As the population grows, more people grow up, have their own families and want a house. It's not happening now because the mortgage debacle in the U.S. that started this entire multiple double-dip near recession led to a huge overstock of housing in the U.S.

Until that is cleared up, people will not start building houses. But the demographic pent-up demand for houses exists. People are living with their parents. They're sleeping on their friends' couches. They've moved in with their uncle and aunt. As soon as they can get a job, and as soon as there is some return to economic growth, one of the first things they're going to want is a bit of privacy and their own house. The demand will then come back.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

We'll go now to the New Democratic Party and Monsieur Caron for up to eight minutes.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you for your remarks, Mr. Lazar and Ms. Cobden.

You mentioned that the forest industry accounted for about 2% of Canada's gross national product and employs some 220,000 people. Prior to the recession in 2007-2008, those figures were 3% of the GDP and about 300,000 people, respectively. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Avrim Lazar

The drop was a bit more gradual than that. It was actually 3% eight years ago.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

The forest industry has been stuck in a cyclical restructuring crisis for at least seven or eight years. When the recession hit, the auto industry got $10 billion in loan guarantees and various other types of assistance. Let's do a comparison. I've looked at the budgets from 2006 up to now. We're talking about $500 million or so at the most, and that doesn't include the pulp and paper green transformation program.

What is your take on the discrepancy between the assistance given to the automobile industry, which accounted for the same share of GDP but fewer employees, and the assistance given to the forest industry during the same period?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Avrim Lazar

That's a great question. The point of comparison that we think is valid is not the automobile industry; it's what other forest industries are getting in other countries. We don't compete with the automobile industry. As a forest industry we don't have a grounded view as to whether or not what was done for the automobile industry was the right or wrong thing. But we know what we need, and we know that the degree of help for other forest industries in the United States and Europe is far more than we're getting in Canada. So do we want more? Yes, we want more. Do we dismiss the $1 billion? We don't—not even a little bit. There are many towns that survived because of it.

Was the Canadian government's type of intervention very well targeted? Yes, it was. Would it have been better if we had received as much as our competitors? Yes, that would have been much better. Are we disadvantaged on Canadian jobs because Americans are getting more money? The answer is yes, we are disadvantaged. My members who have mills on both sides of the border are benefiting more in the States than in Canada.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

I like your answer. I think everyone can agree that certain areas got more support. For instance, the green transformation program helped certain parts of the industry. The flip side is that we have to look at where restructuring needs to happen. We are talking about paper and newsprint, where there is more competitiveness internationally speaking. I think everyone can agree on that. However, the green transformation program, which my colleague will talk about, targeted the pulp market and other kraft-related products more. So the newsprint industry really did not benefit from that program.

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Avrim Lazar

I don't agree with you entirely there. Yes, most of the subsidies go to the pulp sector because that is in line with the program in place in the U.S. With the softwood lumber agreement, we are always threatened by

trade actions.

It was very important to create a program that was in line with the one in the U.S. to protect us from further

softwood lumber aggression.

But the industry is more or less integrated.

If you're making paper you're buying it from a pulp producer. If you're making pulp you're buying it from a lumber producer. So even though the direct help was not distributed evenly and was distributed to reflect what was happening in the U.S., it affected the entire industry.

I remember just before meeting with the Minister of Trade at the Rideau Club I had a bunch of my COs together. Some of the lumber guys were starting to get quite aggressive, saying, “Why should the pulp guys get this? We should demand our own.” Then someone did the analysis, and it turned out that the entire industry agreed that this was the best we could get. If we had designed it simply in a vacuum as a green transformation, the details would have been different.

4 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Is it fair to say that, since 2006, most of the assistance that the Conservative government has given to the forest industry has, by and large, been in the form of medium- and long-term measures related to research and development and marketing development for forest products? No direct assistance was provided immediately to deal with the crisis—or at least very little.

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Avrim Lazar

Yes, the vast majority of the assistance was for the long term. There are two reasons for that. First of all, we, in the industry, believe that was the most beneficial type of assistance, but also—

if you just go with a straight subsidy, we would have been much more vulnerable to the softwood.

4 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Foreign subsidies, for example, wouldn't have been positive for, say, the newsprint mills to actually receive.... Because of their difficulties it was hard for them to get the market rate to refinance their debt, right?

Being able to get, say, a loan guarantee from the federal government, to be able to restructure, to be able to refinance and restructure into new products, different products, to reach different markets, wouldn't that have been a positive approach in your mind?

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Avrim Lazar

We looked at loan guarantees, and the trade lawyers—believe me, we've been through this more than once with my members pushing on me—are pretty clear. If a loan guarantee gives you a real benefit that is calculable, it's actionable under the trade agreement, and that way our hands are relatively tied.

The one thing the government has done, but hasn't done well enough, which would really help in those areas, is accelerated capital appreciation. That is a huge improvement because then you can bring in private capital—and in some ways it's better than government money. You see a fast return because of accelerated capital appreciation. You don't get investments in things just because there's government money, but you actually get it strategic. The government has provided us with accelerated capital appreciation year after year, but it only extends it one or two years at a time. These are capital projects that require five or ten years' planning.

We end up doing what's fast to be done as opposed to what's strategic to do because of the one-year extensions.

We had similar problems, though not as bad, with the green transformation money; it had to be spent very quickly because it was under the.... I don't remember what it was called—Canada Works? There were five million signs; you'd think I'd remember what the program was called.

4 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

I have time for one last quick question.

My final question is this. Seeing what's happening right now and what was happening not long ago with AbitibiBowater and now with White Birch and NewPage, for example, do you agree that we're still somewhat in the storm, still not out of there?

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada

Avrim Lazar

Yes.

I'll be very clear. I'm not here to say that things are good. I'm here to say that it's not a storm; it's a changed climate. White Birch, Abitibi, they're not dealing...of course, the dollar is disastrous for them. They're not dealing with competition. They're dealing with a structural change; they're in a business in which demand is going down. The storm came, it dropped, and now it's slowed down. They have to change business models.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Caron.

Mr. McGuinty, you have about eight minutes.

Go ahead, please.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see you again, Mr. Lazar.