Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 27th, 2014

[Jay Khosla]

In terms of the numbers, I don't have them right before me. But it's very clearly scientific jobs, environmental engineering jobs, engineering jobs on the petroleum side, very clearly, in terms of regulatory practices and reviews, jobs that come forth from there; and it's very clearly jobs that emanate from the manufacturing sector and so on. So it's highly technical, specialized jobs, well-paying jobs.

You can look at Fort McMurray as an example. I was told this, so it's anecdotal and I don't have it verified with the department, but somebody told me the average household income is in the neighbourhood of $150,000 and upwards for a family. That's something to sort of think about.

Beyond that, we could come back to the committee with specific comparisons. I would highlight again at the end of the day that countries are coming to us for expertise, not only in the resource base itself but how we do the business. We continue to innovate in the oil sands. I'm sure others will come to this committee as witnesses and be able to give you more characterization around that.

I don't know if you wanted to add anything—Martin, in particular.

[Martin Aubé]

I'll maybe add that there are hundreds of these examples, but maybe add the SaskPower Boundary Dam, where SaskPower is now being seen as a world leader in carbon capture and actually are seeing this as a business line, a new business line where they'll actually export that knowledge because they are the first ones in the world to have done something like that.

When you're talking about keen competitive advantages, there are lots of stories.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Is that in the oil and gas...?

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Coal.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Is there a relationship to oil and gas there?

[Martin Aubé]

The CCS...yes, it's in the electricity.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

We've developed the technology through the oil and gas sector of CCS that's now being utilized in SaskPower.

[Martin Aubé]

More important, it's not only the technology; it's the services that come with it. It's the engineering knowledge that comes with doing that kind of project that has major applications in the oil sands too.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Ms. Crockatt. Your time is up.

I do want some clarification as to what you're asking for from the officials. I hear answers coming from slightly different points of view. We're doing a study on the cross-country benefits of the oil and gas sector of the energy economy. Were you asking specifically about the environmental component of the oil and gas sector and that component, the innovation and technology that's developed, the benefits from that part of the industry?

Is that what you're asking the officials to come up with, roughly, if they understood what I was trying to say? I realize I didn't get that, because I'm hearing slightly different points of view taken in the answers, I think.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I think the job numbers, too. We'd like to see them specific to the oil and gas sector.

[Jay Khosla]

For sure.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

On the spinoffs then we can do three levels: direct, indirect, and tertiary.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I hope that clarifies. If you have any further questions on that, do ask.

[Jay Khosla]

We'll be providing that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Ms. Crockatt.

We go now to Ms. Duncan, and Mr. Julian if you have time.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

In following up on Ms. Crockatt—it was a good question—I wonder if you could table with us a detailed breakdown of the purported exact jobs per province and region of province that are direct and indirect jobs that can be associated solely with the oil and gas sector.

I wonder if you could also include data on the percentage of investment in extracting a higher percentage of bitumen versus investment in cleaner processing. Perhaps you could just provide that to the committee at a later date.

[Jay Khosla]

Certainly.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I want to make one correction. I said the insurance industry. It's actually the banking industry that is raising concerns about the depreciating value of property, which shouldn't be surprising to us because that happened with contaminated lands. It was actually the banks' intervention that finally caused governments around the world to start calling for regulation on contaminated lands.

I have one final question. Mr. Julian asked a question about the considerations in where the investment goes in various energy sectors. While the department is saying we have a market-based sector, in the Canadian democratic system that does not preclude governance. In fact, your very department is mandated to regulate the energy sector. The National Energy Board is required to consider the public interest. I'm wondering, why is the government not requiring the National Energy Board in reviewing export applications to require consideration of alternative scenarios, including job creation in Canada instead of exporting the raw bitumen?

[Jay Khosla]

Is the specific question what does the National Energy Board consider in its reviews?

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I already know what it considers. You said there is no role for governance; it's all market-based. But in fact, your regulatory mandate gives you all kinds of governance powers. Is there no consideration being given to mandate the NEB, when it is looking at the public benefit, to balance off the value to the Canadian economy and job creation of exporting the raw bitumen or requiring a percentage to be upgraded in Canada?

[Jay Khosla]

On the first part of the question in terms of, sorry if I...

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Please just stop the clock for a minute.

I just want to get some clarification here, because I think Mr. Aubé, in his answer, talked exactly about government investment along with business in the environmental component of the oil and gas economies.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

With all due respect, Mr. Chair, my question has nothing to do with the environment. It has to do with job creation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Well, I was struggling to actually understand exactly what you were asking.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

My question is very clear. The NEB is required to consider the public interest. In the direction that Natural Resources can provide, because it gives the direction to the NEB in how it conducts its reviews.... In fact, NEB doesn't make the final decision anymore. The cabinet does.

Is there new consideration being given to...? This whole meeting is all about job creation, development of the Canadian economy. Is there increasing consideration of job creation from upgrading, not just simply exporting, the raw bitumen?