Natural Resources Committee on March 27th, 2014

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you.

Chief Adam, welcome virtually to Algonquin territory here.

I have a question for you about the water monitoring program that has been proposed by government. Minister Kent said in 2012 that we need to match our commitment to environmentally responsible development with a world-class comprehensive and transparent monitoring program, and yet I haven't heard anything about this water monitoring program.

I can only imagine that Fort Chip is involved. Are you able to give us an update on what's going on?

[Chief Allan Adam]

Well, this first-class monitoring system that both the federal and provincial governments announced a few years back isn't in place, from either Canada or Alberta.

We, the first nations, both the Mikisew Cree First Nation and the ACFN, had to conduct our own monitoring system, which is being conducted right now and has been for the last two years.

What we've found from our monitoring system is that there is heavy selenium content in our water source, in the vegetation, in the wildlife present in our area right now. The monitoring system we have in place works for us, but we need to make sure that the information is handed out to the general public to make it aware that our monitoring system works. The federal and provincial governments need to partner with the first nations with respect to the way we see the monitoring system work, because right now their monitoring system is failing Canada in more ways than the first nations one is benefiting us.

We truly understand through this monitoring system that we don't have any influence on what is being put in there. It is being developed and the research has been conducted and is coming out, and we have presented that research at the table to make sure that everybody is aware of all the contaminants that are there.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

It's interesting that you've resorted to monitoring in light of the government's not doing its job. That's fascinating and depressing.

[Chief Allan Adam]

Well, we're trying to meet the needs with respect to all the things we've been advocating in the last six years. We need to do what we have to do.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

That's right. Exactly.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Ms. Leslie.

We go now to the next three members on our five-minute round: Ms. Crockatt, followed by Ms. Moore and Mr. Calkins.

Go ahead, please, Ms. Crockatt.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I too want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today. It's wonderful to have you and your expertise.

Mr. Desrochers, I wonder if I could start with you. I thought it was quite an incisive observation that you made off the top when Mr. Regan was questioning you about social licence and asking what the social licence is to block development when it is increasing people's quality of life.

You also touched on human creativity and innovation. I'd like you to talk a little more about how we're seeing innovation and creativity coming from oil and gas, which helps to benefit Canadians.

[Dr. Pierre Desrochers]

Again, the Canadian oil and gas sector is part of a global industry. Canada supplies roughly 60% of its own need as far as petroleum is concerned. A lot of the things in this room were probably made with Canadian fuel at some point in time, which was probably shipped from Alberta to Ontario and then turned into something else.

We benefit from petroleum products in general in our daily lives to an extent that we don't even realize. How many of you drove in this morning? What was the seat of your car made of? The food that you ate this morning was probably produced using fertilizers that were produced with natural gas. The food was probably produced in Ontario and the fuel might have come from Alberta. The food you bought this morning was probably packaged in plastic. Again, there's a reason we're so much better off than our ancestors.

The thing is, we must not only focus on jobs. Yes, as another witness said earlier, you might say that there are few jobs created in the energy sector, but that's irrelevant because the business is capital intensive, and it provides all of these inputs that are essential to other lines of work. Canadians benefit from this from the moment they wake up in the morning to the moment they go to bed, and even when they sleep, when they're keeping their houses warm through the type of winter that we've had.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

I'll now go to Blaire Lancaster.

Hi Blaire. How are you? Thanks for being here.

I don't know if you're aware of the McKinsey carbon abatement graph, but it shows that some of the best things we can do if we're interested in abating carbon are actually things that consumers do, not governments. They do things like turn off their lights, insulate their homes, and drive a car that is powered with natural gas.

You're working on one of those things, which is natural gas cars. Can you tell me what the horizon is for that? Do we actually have a significant number of vehicles now in Canada? Is this a cross-Canada benefit that we're seeing right now?

[Blaire Lancaster]

There is definitely momentum happening in Canada, but there's a huge opportunity for a lot more growth in this regard. There are very good numbers out there about the number of natural gas vehicles that are currently on the road and what that potential can be. I don't have those numbers available, but I could likely get them for you.

It's a relatively new market in North America. Recently we have seen this surge in natural gas production because of the technological improvements in producing in the shale formations and trying to find new markets for this natural gas, coupled with the environmental benefits associated with these natural gas engines.

As I mentioned, one of the major barriers to this market developing as quickly as it could and should is the fact that there's a lack of fuelling infrastructure. The end users, whether they're operators of big trucking companies, regular passenger vehicles, rail locomotives, or marine vessels, I think can all see the benefits of converting in terms of the cost savings and significant environmental benefits, but until there's a secure and abundant source of supply, it's very difficult for the end users to make the capital investment to switch over. Also, as I said—

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

May I interject?

I'm interested in whether you're aware of some of the benefits. For example, Calgary's bus system has a large number of buses—a project—that are running on natural gas. Are you aware of some of the current benefits of natural gas, where we have natural gas actually being used across Canada?

[Blaire Lancaster]

Yes. I know that Calgary Transit had conducted a study on this, and I think they are piloting one or two or three buses right now to run on compressed natural gas. I believe if that goes well, then....

At Ferus, we have incorporated three natural gas trucks into our fleet. We are about to take possession of 15 more natural gas trucks, heavy-duty trucks. As the engine technology catches up, we will be converting our entire fleet of 70 trucks to natural gas.

I know in British Columbia there's a lot of work being done here. Natural gas vehicles are a pretty large focus in that province. I think that Vedder Transport has 50 natural gas trucks in its fleet. Waste Management is running on compressed natural gas. BC Ferries is looking at converting.

In the province of Quebec, Robert trucking has, I think, 100 natural gas trucks in its fleet.

It's happening. I think the more and faster the infrastructure catches up, the more end users are going to be making the commitment to switch over.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much.

We have Ms. Moore next, for six minutes.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Adam.

During our study on rare earth mines, we also heard from a woman who is chief of her community.

Do you receive some financial assistance from either the Department of Aboriginal Affairs or the Department of Natural Resources to hire advisers or specialists to help you analyze a project to ensure that you get the best possible benefits? If not, do you have to take funds from the budget you receive for your reserve?

[Chief Allan Adam]

We have to submit our invoices in regard to CEAA in regard to going forward with intervening on most of these projects that are coming out right now. But you have to remember that we have to inject most of our money into it before we can recoup some of it back. We don't recoup 100% of the money we've invested with regard to going into the hearing or going into a proper study of the effects and damage it has with regard to our first nation.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

In other words, doing that analysis can be difficult. It may put some financial pressure on the community, especially if the community needs to analyze a number of projects at the same time and it knows that the costs will not be reimbursed.

[Chief Allan Adam]

That's the case we're having right now. When we have to defer money into these areas where we have to fight against regulatory systems, we're taking money away from the community, in regard to where we could provide better programs and better services for our people. Therefore, the government is failing us in more ways than one. You have to keep in mind that ACFN does not get any money from the CFA that we have with Canada to operate our nation at this point in time.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

If the government helped you more, you could enjoy even more benefits from the oil and gas subsection, is that right?

[Chief Allan Adam]

Basically, at this point in time if you were to give better support in that area, we would be able to do a comprehensive review of everything that's coming forward. Therefore, in more ways than one, I think ACFN, through our group of companies and through our joint ventures.... Canada benefits quite a bit from it, maybe about $15 million in taxes, yet we as a first nation don't get anything back in return.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for your answers, Mr. Adam.

Mr. Desrochers, you spoke at length about social benefits, so to speak, from the oil and gas industry. However, these benefits have another side. Often, what pays well when individuals are working in this sector is overtime. Labour is scarce, and workers do a lot of overtime, which can sometimes affect their health. Workers have little time to themselves and are less involved in the community.

Don't these benefits have some negative effects on the social fabric of communities?

[Dr. Pierre Desrochers]

I think that, ultimately, it is a personal choice.

When I was younger, I was the type of person who accepted all the overtime hours I was offered. It paid for my education. I may not be the most social of people, but I am pleased to have been able to work overtime in my jobs. I was able to finish school without going into debt. I even had a decent amount in the bank.

At the end of the day, people make their own choices. I would rather give young Canadians as much opportunity as possible, especially in today's economy. If we can offer them well paying jobs and overtime, I ultimately believe it's them that it concerns. The less debt they are in, the more hard working they are, the better the communities will be.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

What about young people who, unfortunately, have accidents at work or hurt their back at the start of their career?

[Dr. Pierre Desrochers]

Once again, it's a personal issue. I could get hit crossing the street tomorrow morning. Does that mean I should stay home and do nothing?

No employer wants his or her employees to get hurt. In any case, I haven't had much experience with that in my life.

Once again, if I may come back to my statistics from the 19^th century—

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

No, what I want to know is whether they are better protected than before. Do they have some sort of social safety net? Have there been improvements like this?