Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 25th, 2014

[Bob Hamilton]

The process that the NEB follows is this: It seeks funding through supplementary estimates or estimates, and then for the most part—there may be some exceptions to this—it is able to recover that expenditure from the industry. It's like a cost-recovery program, but first you have to come and get the authority from Parliament to spend the money. It's just the way it works. In almost all cases—I hesitate to say all, just in case there is an exception—it cost-recovers that money from the industry.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

I want to pick up on a discussion I had with the minister regarding isotopes.

What is your department's contingency plan in the event of another international isotope crisis?

[Bob Hamilton]

For the isotopes?

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Yes, and how is it funded? Do you have a backup plan, and how is it funded?

[Bob Hamilton]

I would say that the plan on the isotopes, as the minister indicated, is to seek out alternate supplies. In 2010 there was a decision made that we would try to rely more on other sources besides the NRU. Indeed, the minister referenced some of the activity that we're doing on that front.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

It sounds as if there's basically a hope that if another crisis comes along, by then there will be other sources that produce enough that it won't be an issue. Is that basically where it stands?

[Bob Hamilton]

No, there's more than a hope. If you look at the figures, there has actually been quite a movement in terms of more diversity of supply since that time.

If you look at 2010 and before that time, the NRU produced over 40% of the global supply of isotopes. Today it supplies between 15% and 20%, depending on when exactly you measure it. We've seen a decreased reliance on the NRU, but certainly it is a contributor.

The plan is to make sure that there are those other sources available when the NRU does cease to produce medical isotopes.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Let me turn, if I may, to AECL.

As I understand it, SNC-Lavalin paid $15 million for the AECL assets.

We've just seen that the government's now paying another $35 million for Bruce Power's refurbishment, for some reason that we're not going to be privy to apparently.

You also get revenue coming back from China for royalties from CANDU.

Is that included in the supplementary estimates (B)? How much is that, and where would we see that?

[Bob Hamilton]

It is not included in the supplementary estimates (B) that I'm aware of, unless it's buried somewhere. I don't believe so.

Again, with some of the other information that you talked about, that financial information, I'm happy to provide that in writing afterward. I just don't have it at my disposal.

There isn't anything in the supplementary estimates (B) on that royalty question.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

The minister said that the department plans to go out over the next number of months to aboriginal communities to talk about the new extractive sector transparency provisions in Bill C-43. I assume that if this is a serious undertaking and a comprehensive engagement with first nations communities, it will require adequate funding.

Exactly how much is budgeted for these consultations, whether it's in the main estimates, the supplementary estimates (A), or supplementary estimates (B)?

[Bob Hamilton]

You're right that in this area mandatory reporting initiatives are going forward. We have deferred the implementation for first nations for two years and there will be further consultations.

I would emphasize that it's further consultations. There already have been discussions about this initiative and how it would apply to all levels of government, including first nations.

From my perspective, we're going to be doing this as part of our ongoing activity funding. We will fund that internally within the department. We're not seeking any extra funds in this initiative that I'm aware of.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Are you able to tell us, for example, what is budgeted for that?

You must have a budget within your department where you say, “We're going to spend this much on consultations”.

[Bob Hamilton]

Yes. Again, not having broken it out for this session, if I can come up with such a figure, when I go back to the office, I'm happy to provide it to you.

We're not seeking additional funding for that here. We will be covering that through our ongoing efforts.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

From what we've heard previously, the process with the aboriginal communities is to “inform them how this will work”.

Why are you simply telling aboriginal communities how the new provisions are going to apply to them, rather than actually consulting them on what those provisions should look like?

[Bob Hamilton]

In all of these discussions there's an aspect of explaining how it will work just to make sure that everybody understands. In the context of these discussions, there can be points raised about how it might have an unintended consequence that could be dealt with outside of the legislative framework. There are always some details that are important to know, for us, and for the aboriginal community or whomever we're talking to.

It would be extreme to call it “just telling people how it works”. It is true that there will be a legislative framework that we will be describing rather than changing. But always through these discussions, there is an opportunity to uncover perhaps some details that could be dealt with outside of that context.

Yes, there is an explanation part, but we are also listening to make sure we understand how it's going to operate along with the implications.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Deputy Minister, I didn't hear you say that in fact you had told them in advance. It doesn't suggest that and, in fact, in view of that it's no wonder the aboriginal groups who have been talking to my office have been viewing this as pretty much a punitive measure.

What resources will be provided to aboriginal communities to allow them to meet the new requirements under division 28 of Bill C-43?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

You need a very brief response, please.

[Bob Hamilton]

Yes, and there are two things. I would say there had been discussions with first nations prior to tabling the bill, so I would just correct the record on that front. I'm not aware of any specific funding that has been earmarked for that activity. If I uncover it I'll let you know, but for the moment we will engage in these consultations and we'll see what resource implications fall out of that for us and for the communities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

We go now to the five-minute round, starting with Ms. Block, then going to Mr. Trost and Ms. Duncan, possibly Mr. Leef.

I want to remind the committee that we will have to go to the votes after so we can vote on the supplementary estimates (B) and report them to the House.

We go now to Ms. Block for up to five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our officials to this committee. I had the privilege of serving on the government operations and estimates committee and I know one of my colleagues along the way did too. I feel that it was an important committee to sit on as you gained a fairly good understanding of the whole budgeting process and why it's important for committees to look at the supplementary estimates and ask questions, not only of the minister, but of the department.

Even though I sat on that committee for two years and we studied how to improve the process and the information that MPs received, I still look at these estimates and sometimes I'm confused by what I'm looking at.

What I am wanting to have you clarify for me is the transfers to other organizations. I know there are transfers that can come from organizations and then go to organizations and that sometimes they're the same, that we could have something coming in from Aboriginal Affairs and perhaps going out. That may not be the best example, but I'm specifically looking at the transfer to Shared Services Canada to provide support to departmental staff located at missions abroad. I'm curious to know what's that for?

[Bob Hamilton]

Okay. On that one I might ask Kami to elaborate on it, but I think that you're right. Sometimes it's difficult to find your way through how the supplementary estimates fit in with the broader estimates process and broader budgeting, but in general we do identify a number of areas where we talked about Aboriginal Affairs, National Defence, where one department is providing a service, if you like, for another.

In the case of the High Arctic, we have a facility and we're saying it makes more sense, it's more efficient, for us to do that, rather than for the department of defence, for example, to recreate it and so we would accept a transfer from them for that.

On the Shared Services one maybe I'll ask Kami to elaborate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Go ahead, Ms. Ramcharan.

[Kami Ramcharan, Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Management and Services Sector, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you.

Primarily, the transfer is about providing support to our technical advisers who are located in Abu Dhabi and Beijing in order to undertake market development initiatives. Shared Services Canada is a different department from ours, but they are the ones who technically provide that support. So we provide resources to them in order to support us in those two locations.

We basically have one locally engaged staff in Beijing and one in Abu Dhabi. They're front-line contact staff for our Natural Resources engagement in Beijing and in the Middle East and they help support us in our international priorities in key emerging markets for Canada.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I will follow up noting that in this line in the estimates it says that money has been transferred to Shared Services Canada from National Defence, from Natural Resources, and from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

I know you can't answer anything on behalf of those departments, but is there any collaboration or discussions between departments when you're looking at providing resources to another department, so that you're aware of what other departments are perhaps supporting at the same time that this department would be?

[Kami Ramcharan]

It's really hard to know for certain, because we're not involved in terms of what the other organizations are doing. However, there will be times when we're all collaborating on the same kinds of projects, so we will have portions in terms of supporting folks abroad. Specifically to your question on the various other departments and what funding they're providing to Shared Services Canada, it could be in support of the same organization that we are supporting, or it could be fundamentally different. It's simply about recognizing that departments are transferring moneys to another department, and that's what the estimates are doing. They are showing that money is moving from one budget within our department, or another department, back into Shared Services Canada and not necessarily is it always linked.