Official Languages Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

On this Tuesday, November 22, 2011, we are starting our 14^th meeting. We are here pursuant to Standing Order 108 to study the evaluation of the Roadmap: improving programs and service delivery.

Today we are hearing from three groups. First, we have the Association franco-yukonnaise, represented by Mr. Blais and Mr. St-Pierre. Then we have Ms. Dupuis and Mr. Paul, from the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones. Lastly, we have Ms. Forest-Niesing and Mr. Rémillard, from the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc.

Welcome, everyone.

We'll begin with the Association franco-yukonnaise.

A point of order? Go ahead.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chairman, I believe we should take a little time at some point to look at the agenda and the witnesses. We haven't yet done that. The witnesses come any which way. I apologize to the witnesses. We have a minor internal problem.

We don't see any planning for the future. First, we should sit down and look at the witness list and what we have left so that we can then decide how much time this study will take. We'll have to do some planning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay.

The clerk distributed a calendar last week.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

If we look at the calendar, we see that there's nothing next week. That's what we received.

[Le président, Conservative, Michael Chong]

I distributed them to all committee members

Okay.

I now hand the floor over to the Association franco-yukonnaise.

[Jean-Sébastien Blais, Vice-President, Association franco-yukonnaise]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, committee members, it is a pleasure for us to be here in the national capital. It is an honour and a privilege to be speaking with you today. On behalf of the AFY, I thank you for inviting us. As you can see, I am here with Régis St-Pierre, who is regional co-executive director of our association. Together we will show, in our presentation, that the Roadmap is having a positive impact on our community and that it should be renewed.

Today we have been asked to provide our evaluation of the Roadmap and its actual impact on and within the Franco-Yukon community. We will be focusing on two priorities. The first, which is a long-term priority, is to build a strong, viable and inclusive Franco-Yukon community supported by a number of partners that contribute to the Yukon's development, a community based on values such as accountability, respect, joint action, openness, innovation and creativity in order to contribute to the vitality of Canada's linguistic duality and of our two official languages.

The other priority, which concerns application in action, is consistent with the objectives of the strategic investments by the federal departments in the needs of Yukon's citizens. We believe that those investments are providing effective, efficient and concerted support for the needs of the Franco-Yukon community. Through those investments, we are taking an active part in the linguistic and cultural vitality of this community. We also believe we are complying with the current priorities of the Government of Canada.

So the idea is to analyze everything through two types of lenses. The first, which provides us with an overview, is entitled The Road to the Future, and the second, which informs us in more targeted fashion by area for action, is entitled The Road of the Present.

As Prime Minister Harper said in launching the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality 2008-2013: Acting for the Future: "Our federation was born of a desire by English- and French-speaking Canadians to share a common future."

To have a clear idea of where we are headed, we must know where we are coming from. The Franco-Yukon community wasn't born yesterday. We have been around since the territory was first colonized, since trading began in the Yukon, that is to say since the Hudson Bay Company was established. The Franco-Yukon community has developed in particular through the establishment of strategic institutions. We have seen that, without institutions in the territory, many francophones have quickly been assimilated. It's even been said that the assimilation rate reached 100%. However, as a result of federal government investments, the Franco-Yukon community, that is the francophones of the Yukon, have been able to develop, grow and enhance the vitality of the entire territory.

If you visit Yukon today, you will see a strong francophone presence and a contagious vitality that is producing convincing results. With the growth of the past 35 years, we've seen the Franco-Yukon population triple. The number of persons using French in the home across the territory has risen by 68%. French-English bilingualism is increasing in Yukon. Twelve per cent of our population today is bilingual.

Our community is dynamic. It has experienced very interesting developments in recent decades, including a francophone school, a francophone school commission and economic and cultural development tools. That is the result of strategic planning established in cooperation with our federal and territorial partners.

To tell you more and to delve more deeply into the subject, I invite my co-executive director to tell you about our community's achievements in the various sectors of activity.

Thank you.

[Régis St-Pierre, Co-Executive Director, Association franco-yukonnaise]

Let's talk more specifically about the five areas for action identified by the Government of Canada.

The first is emphasizing the value of linguistic duality among all Canadians. I'm going to provide a summary because I know you'll have some good questions for me.

We could say it's really important to make the connection between everything that's being done nationally, but also with statutes such as the Yukon's Languages Act. That legislation was introduced in the 1980s thanks to the federal government, which even entered into an agreement with the Yukon government. That act is 100% funded by the federal government, which ensures that it is implemented through the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality.

That act must be implemented if we want my children and those of Jean-Sébastien to benefit from it. The act must meet the expectations of legislators and the public. The federal government has given us enormous support and can continue to do so. The Languages Act must therefore be fully implemented in Yukon.

It should also be noted that a number of federal government services have been transferred to the Yukon government without any guarantee that French-language services will be provided. We must ensure that the francophone population receives services equal to those received by the anglophone population.

Here are a few examples. Recently, in 2010, there was a transfer for employment assistance services. All citizens, employers and businesses contribute to the Employment Insurance Fund. In Canada, all those services should be bilingual. These agreements have provided for a transfer to the Yukon government without any guarantee that French-language services will be provided for the Yukon population.

Let's consider the example of health services for which the federal government has an obligation in the Canadian north. Those services were transferred, but we are still waiting for French-language services to be implemented in Yukon. These are actual examples of things that can improve the situation every day.

We must build a future by investing in youth. This is the most important sector of our community, where we have made the biggest effort. We believe that youth is not the future, it's now. That is why our child care services are growing fast. They need investments and they will need support. Our school is growing and overflowing. That's why the Yukon francophone school commission—you could invite its representatives—has continued its legal efforts on behalf of the Franco-Yukon community. The Supreme Court judgment clearly reveals our needs with regard to infrastructure and schools management.

It will be recalled that nearly 50% of investments under the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality apply to the education system. It's extremely important for us that the money allocated by the federal government be used for citizens and have an impact on people's everyday lives. My daughter is currently at school. I would like her to be able to finish school in suitable facilities comparable to those of the anglophone majority.

Our objective is to promote collaboration among all levels of government. Researchers talk about a balance, a balance between the education system and a strong community in a minority environment where 90% of the population is anglophone, as is the case in Yukon.

There are also the first nations. It's important to have this balance between a strong community and a strong education system. Researchers call that the school-community balance.

We also have to improve access to French-language health services. To be brief, the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality has played an essential role. Support must continue for the Société santé en français and the Consortium national de formation en santé. There are very few French-language services, but what the federal government has done in the health sector has had a positive and direct impact on citizens' everyday lives.

Last week, there was a French-language vaccination clinic and that was made possible by partners' efforts to convince the territorial government. There were employees, and they were able to conduct a bilingual clinic. It was held at the francophone centre. This is a historic first, thanks to the partnership. Consequently, these investments must continue so that people can receive vaccine because that improves the conditions of everyday life.

I only have a few minutes left, so I will close by saying that a number of areas are like justice. Some stakeholders here today are in a much better position than I am to talk intelligently about that. I'm going to let them speak, and we'll be able to answer your questions.

We've been quick. We have a file here that we're going to hand over to the clerk. Now we'll be able to move on to the conclusion of our presentation.

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

Today, as I just said, the Franco-Yukon community has shown a strong presence and great vitality. It is dynamic because it has experienced promising developments thanks to effective partners. It is a community that has a francophone school, a francophone school commission and a French economic development mechanism.

There is also a cultural presence with artists who show off the vitality of French at cultural events and festivals.

We also have a close collaborative relationship with the city of Whitehorse, which is developing ties with francophones elsewhere in the country and in France. Next year, we will be celebrating the Franco-Yukon community's 30^th anniversary. We believe that celebration will mark a turning point and that the future will prove us right thanks to larger investments in our francophone school.

In closing, we are ready for all your questions. Don't hesitate to question us about our school community, the Centre de la francophonie and its economic, cultural and social development tools.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Now I'll hand over to the representatives of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones.

[Roger Paul, directeur général, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones]

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Gourde, committee members, I very much enjoyed my colleague's speech, where he said not to hesitate to question him about the operation and challenges of the Conseil scolaire franco-yukonnais. That's a good introduction for me.

On behalf of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones and as executive director of the FNCSF, I want to thank you for your invitation to testify before the Standing Committee on Official Languages as part of its study entitled Evaluation of the Roadmap: Improving Programs and Service Delivery. I'm here today with Yolande Dupuis, who is the past president of the FNCSF.

In the presentation we will be making this morning, we will first tell you about the FNCSF and give you its views on the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality. During the presentation, we will tell you about the FNCSF's mission and orientations. Then we will briefly discuss major achievements in connection with the Roadmap. And lastly, we will outline our prospects for the future.

The Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones is a non-profit organization that represents 31 francophone and Acadian school boards and commissions across Canada. Those school boards and commissions provide educational services in French to nearly 150,000 students at more than 630 school facilities. Those students are spread across the provinces and territories of Canada where French is the language spoken by a minority of citizens.

I'll speak more slowly, since we have simultaneous interpretation. So I'll give a chance to the translators, who are nodding their heads at me.

The FNCSF's mission amounts to ensuring the vitality and continued existence of the French-language schools in Canada. It is also to contribute to the development and vitality of the francophone and Acadian communities. Our mission is carried out by means of strategic planning based on three major orientations.

The first major orientation is to pursue, in cooperation with our partners, the interests of our members and of the francophone and Acadian communities by influencing decision-making power in education. The second is to contribute to the vitality and continued existence of French-language minority schools in Canada to make them more attractive and to retain our staff. The third orientation is to maintain the dynamic character of the member network by promoting opportunities for exchange and joint training.

As you know, our 31 school boards are scattered across Canada. Having been executive director of a school board, the Conseil scolaire de district catholique de l'Est ontarien, I recognize some members who represent the Ottawa region. I realize the extent to which the national capital and eastern Ontario, where there are a lot of francophones, are privileged. They are privileged in a relative way, but nevertheless much more so than elsewhere. It easier when there are larger numbers. However, that is far from being the case across Canada.

For about 20 years now, since 1990, the FNCSF has had some major achievements. It has supported the francophone school boards in their demands for schools management to provide French-language education in accordance with section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In fact, the FNCSF obtained schools management only recently. Now we manage our schools. The FNCSF has contributed to numerous efforts in this area and is still a national and provincial presence.

As I'm only allotted 10 minutes today, I don't intend to talk about all of FNCSF's achievements. However, I will draw your attention to our annual report. It is on the FNCSF website. In reading it, you realize the extent to which our organization promotes French-language schools, networking, mutual cooperation and training. It's all there. I've brought copies, if you're interested.

In striving to achieve its strategic objectives, the federation collaborates with a number of partners who have an interest in French-language education. Among other activities, the federation makes a major contribution toward rallying numerous partners on one major issue, the Action Plan for the Implementation of Section 23.

At the Sommet des intervenants et des intervenantes en éducation in June 2005—I'm talking about the 2005 summit—the federation coordinated all the activities of the tripartite committee—I'll talk about that committee in a moment. We've been doing that for seven years. We're getting ready for the next education summit, which will be held in Edmonton in April 2012.

At the Sommet des intervenants et des intervenantes en éducation in June 2005, the some 200 participants representing various bodies with an interest in education and coming from various francophone and Acadian communities in Canada, assigned the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones responsibility for coordinating the Action Plan for the Implementation of Section 23. The decision was made to form a tripartite committee, which is still operating. The tripartite committee has been in place for seven years now.

What does "tripartite" mean? It's difficult to conceive. Every time I talk about it, people ask me when we meet, who sits around the table, a bit like this one. The committee consists of representatives of the three minority French education parties. Around that same table, we of course have representatives of the communities, including those of the school boards. These are representatives of communities that are interested in education. There are representatives—it's quite a feat—of the governments of all the provinces and territories. It's a feat in the sense that we had never seen representatives of all the education departments of all the provinces and territories, those of the Government of Canada, our third partner, and, of course, those of the communities at the same table. We had never brought all those people together to talk about education.

We were a bit nervous at first, thinking that people wouldn't come. As you know, education is a provincial and territorial jurisdiction. Bringing together, in the same room, people from the provinces and territories, people from the federal government and people from the communities to talk to each other was very interesting. Even the fact that it's continuing is very interesting. The people didn't leave the table. They're still there talking about French-language education across Canada. That's the result of the 2005 summit.

The federation has just prepared a very positive report on the efforts and achievements in connection with the Action Plan for the Implementation of Section 23. I don't know whether you have had the opportunity to see that document. It was written in both official languages and distributed and sent to your office. Or rather the clerk told me that it would be in the next few days or weeks. The report outlines all the efforts and achievements the tripartite committee has made over the past seven years. It's quite impressive.

We've entitled the report "L'école de Raphaël". The most recent documents we've prepared had much more general titles. We wondered why we had schools. We have schools for the little Raphaels, little Hamids, you name them, boys, girls, people here as a result of immigration. We want to personalize it. We have schools for children, as a result of which we entitled the report "L'école de Raphaël".

The report outlines an innovative experiment in collaboration, as I said, and a report on the work done in recent years. When we met seven years ago, we established six areas that were important to us. As a result, six working groups have been added over the past seven years. One of the areas is early childhood, our priority. Another is teaching.

Another area is action on culture and identity. Human resources is another area. There's also promoting French-language schools and, lastly, immigration. I forgot infrastructure.

These areas, on which we've been working for seven years, are still priorities. We'll be talking about them a little later.

In addition, the report presents the results of a broad consultation that enabled us to determine some priorities for the future. That's what we've done in the past, now we're wondering where we're headed. Everything I'm talking to you about is of course related to the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality.

Again in this spirit of collaboration, the federation chairs the National Table on Education. What is that about? This table brings together the main francophone organizations in Canada. We bring those principal organizations together so that they can talk to us not necessarily about their mandates, but about education, because it is a national table on education.

At that national table, which we are coordinating, are the Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne-française, the Fédération canadienne des enseignantes et des enseignants, the Fédération canadienne des directions d'écoles francophones, the Fédération des parents canadiens, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française, the Fédération canadienne pour l'alphabétisation en français, the Regroupement des directions générales de l'éducation, the Association des Universities and Colleges of Canada and the Folklore Studies Association of Canada, the FSAC.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Now we'll move on to the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc.

[Josée Forest-Niesing, President, Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc.]

Chairman Chong, Vice-Chairs Bélanger and Godin, ladies and gentlemen, good morning.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Josée Forest-Niesing, and I am president of the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc., the FAJEF. Today I'm here with Rénald Rémillard, executive director of FAJEF. I want to thank you for your invitation, and for allowing us to speak to you briefly about the FAJEF and the progress that has been made as a result of the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality.

The FAJEF represents seven associations of francophone lawyers and its mission is to promote access to justice for francophone minorities. Consisting largely of professionals, the FAJEF has a community mandate and works closely with its network and with numerous citizens' groups. For your information, there are associations of francophone lawyers in the four western provinces, Ontario, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. The seven associations of francophone jurists represent approximately 1,400 lawyers, and the number is increasing every year.

This presentation will focus on some of the effects of the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality and, more generally, on the recent projects in the area of access to justice in French outside Quebec. As you probably know, Justice Canada provides financial support under its Initiative in Support of Access to Justice in Both Official Languages. In practical terms, this support fund enables various stakeholders, including associations of francophone lawyers, to carry out projects, among other things, to promote careers in justice, provide legal training in French to numerous stakeholders in the justice sector—among others, to Crown counsel, clerks, defence lawyers, judges and others—and also to increase awareness among the general public and, more particularly, seniors, youth and francophone newcomers, in numerous legal topics and concerns, including the criminal field, which concern them directly as citizens.

For example, the website of the AJEFS, the Association des juristes d'expression française de la Saskatchewan, currently has more than 229 documents providing legal information for the public. Here are a few brief examples of justice projects for seniors, youth and francophone newcomers. For lack of time, we won't be talking about families.

With regard to seniors, a few days ago, the Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Alberta, gave information sessions on the prevention of senior abuse to 85 participants in Calgary and Edmonton. Twenty-five similar information sessions will be offered in New Brunswick very soon. Similar projects are also under way elsewhere.

The FAJEF has provided training sessions to approximately 200 lawyers to date, in Ontario, Manitoba, British Columbia, Alberta, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, to enable them to better advise their senior clients who are dealing with abuse or fraud.

The Association des juristes d'expression française de la Nouvelle-Écosse has prepared and distributed excellent legal information sheets of interest to Nova Scotia seniors. Those sheets concern subjects such as wills, power of attorney, medical directives and so on.

We believe that this project should be exported elsewhere and that the needs of this clientele will continue to grow, particularly with the aging of the population.

As for youth, we must mention the numerous activities and successes of the AJEFO, the Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario, in promoting careers in justice, careers as police officers, probation officers, lawyers and social workers, not only to young francophones in Ontario, but also elsewhere in Canada, with the aid of other provincial AJEFs.

In New Brunswick, the AJEFNB has organized a summer law camp every year for the past few years to stimulate young people's interest in this field. In addition to promoting careers in justice to students at French and immersion schools, a number of AJEFs are helping to organize school debates and information sessions on crime prevention, the youth criminal justice system, criminal law and so on.

As for awareness and integration of francophone newcomers to Canadian society, the AJEFs and the FAJEF are already working with various local, provincial and national immigrant groups to promote careers in justice to newcomers as police officers, clerks, probation officers and Correctional Service officers and to better inform the members of those communities of their rights and obligations in Canada. For example, every month, with the help of the AJEFM, Accueil francophone du Manitoba offers information sessions in Winnipeg on topics related to family law, criminal law, wills, employment standards, rental issues and so on. The level of interest in and need for these information sessions is obvious from the fact that more 20 persons regularly attend them, even though they are offered on Friday evenings.

As you know, the Roadmap focused to a great extent on training to increase and promote better access to justice in French. We feel some recent progress in this area is worthy of note. For example, the Centre canadien de français juridique, which was established by the FAJEF in 2010, has offered remedial training in legal French to more than 100 provincial and territorial stakeholders, clerks, probation officers, Crown counsel and legal aid lawyers operating in the provincial and territorial systems and the administration of justice outside Quebec and Ontario.

Face-to-face training sessions, which are receiving excellent evaluations, will very soon be combined with aspects of distance training. Lastly, the centre is also providing significant support, through its expertise, for the development of a national training program for provincially appointed judges. That program will include a major evaluation component and a competency grid.

In Ontario, a family mediation training project is currently underway to enable francophone couples and families to receive more of these services in French. In British Columbia, the AJEF is helping to develop lawyers' legal French by organizing mock trials in which the community and youth take part, which provides them with an opportunity to learn more about the Canadian legal system.

As you can see from these few examples of projects, recent investments in the justice sector are having an impact and direct and real effects for citizens as well as on the capacity of the legal system and the administration of justice to provide better access to that system in French. Of course, access to justice in French is not easy or perfect, but we nevertheless believe the Roadmap is producing positive results, and in a number of cases even very positive results. We believe we should continue building on that progress.

Those are our preliminary comments. Mr. Rémillard and I will be pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

We'll now move on to questions and comments by committee members.

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to welcome you all.

We have previously met some of you in this committee. As we only have seven minutes, I'm going to focus on topics of interest to me. I'm going to ask you all the questions, and if you see that I'm not asking you any, it's because another committee member will be asking them, particularly on education.

I appreciate the fact that you're speaking about the Roadmap in a positive way. That indicates a need for it to continue. On that point, I would simply like to ask you the following question: do you want the Roadmap to continue?

[Régis St-Pierre]

Yes, we want that 200%.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We're going to repeat that in case they didn't hear. The francophone communities in this country want the Roadmap to continue 200%.

It's taken 25 years for this committee to conduct a national tour to go and see the minority francophone communities on their own ground. The tour was conducted from Newfoundland and Labrador to British Columbia. However, the north was the only place where the committee did not go.

We have been invited on numerous occasions to go up north, to Yellowknife and Whitehorse. In fact, before the last election, Conservative government members sitting on this committee proposed to go and do a tour there. We prepared for it. The tour has been done, and now a report has to be completed.

I'm speaking to the people representing the regions of Whitehorse and Yellowknife. Do you want the report to be implemented so people know that we didn't spend $100,000 of citizens' money touring around in an airplane to go and see the snow? We have snow back in New Brunswick as well. We don't have to go up north just to see snow.

Do you think it would be important for Parliament or the committee to write the report?

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

We're waiting for the report and we want to see it. A number of citizens want to see it because we've invested a lot of time to take part in the discussions.

For us, this is a matter of being honest and transparent with ourselves. These are values that we want to see implemented soon.

[Régis St-Pierre]

Yes, that would be essential. We thank you very much. The tour created a dynamic. All the media talked about it, both English- and French-speaking. Remember that all the community partners took part, as well as the Yukon government. There were a number of deputy ministers in the room. Some deputy ministers made presentations.

As we were saying, there was a very positive impact on linguistic duality. That was the first time in history that the Standing Committee on Official Languages came to us in Yukon. I believe you've moved things forward. Some foundations have been laid. This isn't the time for them to collapse. This is the time to build upward.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'd like to talk about justice with the representatives of the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law. You mentioned all the good the Roadmap has done in the area of justice. You also mentioned police officers, lawyers and judges. I'd like to know how far you've gone with justice under the Roadmap because that's an aspect that troubles me.

Is any education being done with the provinces?

I'm going to cite you an unfortunate example. I won't go into the details and I will name no one. You know that jobs are scarce in Acadia. There aren't a lot of them in the fishing and forest sectors. Many of our young Acadian francophones are going to work in the west where things seem to be happening.

This is a story of a francophone man who was arrested by police. When he asked for service in French, the police officer, who was a Francophone, told him she had no right to speak to him in French. Even though she was French-speaking, she could not question him in French.

That man is now in prison for four years. On the criminal aspect, I can't judge whether he's guilty or not. However, access to French-language services, particularly in a criminal matter, is important. We know that criminal matters are a federal jurisdiction. We also know that the federal government is building a lot of prisons, whereas at the same time francophones are turning up somewhere in Canada and there are no services...

In all the work you're doing, are you working with the government to raise awareness? It's all well and good to lay the groundwork. However, if the federal government decides to appoint unilingual judges to the Supreme Court and you can't get French-language services in Alberta, that doesn't do much on the ground. You can give everyone training, but that ultimately doesn't count for very much.

I'd like to know your opinion on that.

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

Every provincial association of francophone lawyers definitely does awareness work. That work must be done at the community level and within the court system.

Tangible progress is being made as training is being provided and people are being added to the court system who are capable of receiving and welcoming individuals who are appearing in court in either official language.

Now the story you told us is very unfortunate, particularly for a province with official bilingual status.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That wasn't in New Brunswick; it was in Alberta. It was someone from New Brunswick who was in Alberta.

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

Pardon me, I misunderstood. I thought it had happened in New Brunswick.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

No. People from Alberta don't come and work in New Brunswick.

[Some voices]

Oh, oh!

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

It's nevertheless unfortunate to see those kinds of situations arise. There is work that has to be done.

Mr. Rémillard, do you want to add a few words to my answer?

[Rénald Rémillard, Executive Director, Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc.]

There are a number of lawyers' associations, that take on different forms depending on the province. Sometimes it's a task force. Other times, there is constant communication through which, for example, they identify a particular problem in a province or region. These are unfortunate problems or situations that they try to resolve through remedial measures so that they do not reoccur. The provinces and the lawyers' associations work differently. It depends on the province, the relationships, etc.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

In your responsibilities—

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Time is up.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We're being interrupted because of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Mr. Gourde.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here this morning. Their testimony is very important. I'm going to ask just one question, but I'd like an answer from the three organizations.

You work hard in your communities, and you have implemented strategies. How has the Roadmap managed to support you in your strategies and actions, and how does it support you in the actions you want to take in future? How has the Roadmap had a positive impact in the context of this initiative?

[Régis St-Pierre]

Thank you for your question. As we have already made our presentation, I will answer you briefly.

The Roadmap really helped us target our actions. In 2008, the Roadmap and its major fields of action, which you call "areas", was presented. We developed an overall development plan and we identified our areas. Our areas for intervention correspond exactly to the Roadmap's areas for action, since they were the most important areas for our population: work with youth, work in education and economic development. It's important to have a good, well-paid job.

In that connection, we've just launched the new Web Direction Yukon website, which calls out to workers around the world. A Franco-Yukon team is currently in Europe to find skilled workers in the mining sector, for example, an area where current demand for workers in northern Canada is very great. These actions are being taken as a result of the needs of the community and its structure, organizations such as the ones we have back home. We have to be able to deliver joint, coordinated services to the public.

To do that, it is essential to make some kind of progress. We talk a lot about foundations, especially in the north. We've talked about associations of lawyers. However, there are a lot of things that we don't have. We don't have lawyers associations, we don't have this vehicle for distributing information. And yet it's important, as Prime Minister Harper said, that all the provinces and territories have them. If you deleted the word "territory" and replaced it with "province", there wouldn't be any difference. It's important to have these associations across the country.

The Roadmap has helped us considerably in creating this national force everywhere, as has been said, from sea to sea, to sea. It should not be forgotten that there's one in the north: the Arctic Ocean.

Thank you.

[Roger Paul]

As I said earlier, the Roadmap has definitely helped the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones, which works in partnership with all francophone communities in Canada.

I referred to the report. The Roadmap has clearly helped us in carrying out a number of years of work. It was central to that work. For now and the future, the Roadmap enables us to determine the orientation for the next five years. We're not talking about implementation; we're discussing this.

The education summit will be held in Edmonton in April 2012. All community stakeholders are invited to attend to talk about education. This event will be held thanks to the Roadmap. Yesterday the decision was made on the theme of the summit, "Toward the Community Citizenship School". The idea will be to determine how to involve Canadian citizens in all communities to assist each other and ensure our continued existence and vitality.

The Roadmap has also enabled us to function as a tripartite committee, that is to say with the federal, provincial and territorial representatives at the same table. I believe this example is very consistent with Mr. Godin's question on the study on the development of linguistic duality in the north. It seems to me that, if there were tripartite committees everywhere, that would promote collaboration. It is these kinds of implementation projects that the Roadmap has enabled us to carry out. We talk about them in a very positive manner. We of course hope there will be another Roadmap.

Lastly, I have been asked to invite you personally to the summit that will be held in Edmonton in April 2012. You will be receiving a letter of invitation on this matter. We will be meeting to discuss education orientations for the next five years. You are cordially invited to join us to talk more about the francophone community's education orientations and priorities. We would very much like you to be with us.

[Yolande Dupuis, Past-President, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones]

Now we're sharing resources. We have a national teaching resources strategy. As a result of the work done by the members of the tripartite committee, the provinces and school boards can now work together more efficiently.

[Rénald Rémillard]

In justice, the Roadmap has enabled us to focus on what I call emerging clienteles. Seniors are a growing population, as are newcomers. In the field, the lawyers associations are receiving increasing requests from people dealing with real, genuine problems. If a man or a woman has a legal problem concerning leasing or family law, for example, we try to find solutions. We provide those people with information. We have been able to rely on that to a considerable degree, to access training and information that have enabled us to approach these emerging groups. Consider family mediation, for example. A number of years ago, we heard that there was a shortage of mediators. Consequently, measures are now being taken in an attempt to increase these services to francophone litigants in a number of provinces.

With regard to training for provincial and territorial stakeholders, a lot of initiatives have been carried out in recent years. Now there are new training programs and programs that are much more developed. We've talked about distance training. We see that universities and colleges are increasingly open not only to training for stakeholders once they are in the system, but also for people who are in the system and who are studying to become part of the system, immersion students, for example. There are a lot of training possibilities. We've made a lot of progress in a few years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I too would like to thank you for being here. More than that, I want to thank you for the work you are doing. You're working very hard with our communities. I encourage you to continue, even though there may be darker clouds on the horizon.

I'll try to be brief, and I hope you will be as brief as I am in answering. First, is Yukon doing well with the legal action?

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

The judgment has been rendered, and the ball is currently in the Yukon government's court. The Supreme Court has not decided to dismiss the appeal. The government will appeal the judgment, and it hopes to win. Judge Ouellette has rendered a judgment that could set a precedent in Canada. I believe he put his finger on many problems, including the problem of infrastructure which our students need in order to be well equipped. For the moment, the government is going ahead with the appeal.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Have you received any financial assistance from the Canada Court Challenges Program?

[Régis St-Pierre]

The school board has the lead on this file. We had obtained funding from the former Court Challenges Program, which has been maintained.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

All right.

On the matter of child care facilities in the schools, I entirely agree with you. I hope there is an increase in funding, granted either under an eventual judgment or by future conventions or agreements. It goes without saying that, when there's a demand, it has to be met.

Where things seem to me to be a little less clear, more vague, is with regard to the health transfer because the report could not be written. What is the role of the Société Santé en français in Yukon?

[Régis St-Pierre]

In the Yukon, the Société Santé en français acts somewhat as it does across the country. It manages funds that are transferred for networking. In health, it's mainly the provincial and territorial governments that offer front-line services, and that's where the situation is most problematic.

I don't know whether I've answered the question. I wanted to be very brief.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Do you have a report, some kind of document on the subject that you could share with us?

[Régis St-Pierre]

On the Société Santé en français?

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

On the health issue only.

[Régis St-Pierre]

Yes. The Les EssentiElles network and the PSC, Partenariat communauté en santé, network produce documents. They concern health, but only with regard to partnerships. We also deal with the health training aspect. It's the Yukon government that delivers health services. In her report, the Auditor General of Canada wrote nothing about health services in French.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

We can check the report.

With regard to the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones. I'm delighted to see you have managed to bring the three levels together. The matter of future agreements and what could be included in them is a concern for me.

In your view, is the money currently transferred being well and entirely used in education in the official language minority communities?

[Roger Paul]

As you are no doubt aware, this is a key issue in Yukon. We're talking about a fiduciary obligation of the provinces and territories. That will be discussed in the Court of Appeal.

We of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones are conducting a cross-country tour to discuss the Roadmap and the importance of priorities, setting those priorities. We know that education is a provincial and territorial jurisdiction. However, it seems to me there should be a way to sit everyone down at the same table and to reach an agreement. Earlier we were talking about the tripartite committee, within which there is agreement. There should be a way to invite the school boards to the table.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I just asked you whether you thought the money was currently being well used.

[Roger Paul]

If we're talking about Yukon, that does not appear to be the case.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

And in the other provinces and territories?

[Roger Paul]

We haven't conducted an exhaustive study on the matter.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Should there be one?

[Roger Paul]

We should look at that more closely.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Allow me to make a suggestion. You talk about inviting us; I'd accept an invitation. And perhaps you should consider inviting the Commissioner of Official Languages as well. If there is one authority in the federal government who has the ability and power to investigate, it is he. Whether he has that power with regard to the money of the provinces and territories, that remains to be seen.

[Roger Paul]

We intend to invite the Commissioner of Official Languages. We're very close to him. A photograph of the representative of the federation's management appears on the first page of the last report of the Commissioner of Official Languages.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

If I understand correctly, you are open to the idea of including an obligation to consult and an obligation of a certain degree of transparency in future agreements with the provinces.

[Roger Paul]

We would very much like to have that discussion, yes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

My next question is for the lawyers.

You said your province had 4,400 lawyers, but what does that represent? How many bilingual lawyers are there in Alberta, for example?

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

Perhaps I'll ask Mr. Rémillard to answer that question, as he is much more familiar with that field.

[Rénald Rémillard]

First, the difficulty—

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

One minute.

[Rénald Rémillard]

That varies by province, the definition of what is bilingual and capacity, in particular. It would be very difficult to determine in some provinces, much easier in others.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

If the Government of Canada decided to require Supreme Court justices to be bilingual, would there be enough lawyers across the country—and not just in Quebec—to meet that prerequisite? We hear arguments to the contrary. I was told that half the lawyers in Alberta were bilingual.

Now I'm going to talk about the importance of Radio-Canada.

Members from western Canada are currently tabling petitions in the House to request an end to funding for CBC/Radio-Canada as a whole. What is your opinion on that subject?

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

Once a week, Radio-Canada provides an on-air forum for amateur francophone hosts. In the north, Radio-Canada gives us access to our culture. I think it's important. A number of people are concerned about the future of Radio-Canada because that cultural service is very much appreciated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'd like to ask one final question.

[Régis St-Pierre]

Without Radio-Canada, there would be no French radio or television in Yukon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'd like to know what you do in a summer law camp, but perhaps I could find out at another time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Galipeau.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to welcome our guests and to ask them to join us so that we can have unanimous consent in wishing our chair a happy 40^th birthday.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

He told me he wasn't feeling well this morning, and now I understand why: it's because he's 40 years old.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

The Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality is a very important instrument for the survival of the French language in minority communities, and, I hope as well, for promotion. I have worked to ensure that it has solid funding. As you all know, the more than $1 billion in funding is 40% more than the funding provided for the previous plan.

The school yard is a vitally important place for the French language. It is even more important than the classroom. The teacher controls proceedings in the classroom. That's not the case in the school yard. That's where the fight is most important. Even in homogenous French-language schools, we often hear English being spoken in the school yard, which frustrates the teachers. They naturally see that assimilation has an impact on their own future employment. It's more than they can bear; they use coercive methods to correct the situation. Shouting "Speak French" is a little like scraping your fingernails on the blackboard.

Have you considered any incentive strategies? Are you using any to encourage young people to attach greater value to their language? I think we have to focus on incentives and help young people understand that they've been left a beautiful legacy. Otherwise, no coercive measures will work.

What do you say, Mr. Paul?

[Roger Paul]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Galipeau.

At the outset, I would say you're right that we can no longer achieve positive results through coercive measures. When I was executive director of a school board, the watchword was not to shout "Speak French" because that wasn't how you got results.

In any case, the watchword doesn't just come from the school or school board. It isn't just their role to ensure the francophone community takes charge of itself. It's a matter that is up to the community and that depends on the support of all our partners.

Earlier I mentioned the theme of the next summit, which will provide us with education orientations for the Canadian francophone community. I want to point out that that isn't just the business of school boards. All the communities will be around the table to discuss orientation and civic engagement. If citizens help each other in ensuring the vitality and continued existence of French in their communities, that will work.

We can no longer afford to manage our schools as the majority does. In addition to learning mathematics, science and French, there is increasing cultural awareness. We've just developed a pan-Canadian framework for the assimilation of culture in the French-language schools. The most important thing is not to speak French, but rather to belong to a community.

We must all ask ourselves how we can contribute to that community. However, that must not be done just at school. Youth have to be led into their community, to contribute to it, in addition to raising their awareness. Civic community schools must establish bi-directional links. We must stop asking the people in our communities to help in the schools. Once they've helped in the schools, they have nothing to do. Instead, the schools must move out of their setting and into the community. That's where you see the importance of a vibrant community.

So you're right in saying that coercive measures are no longer a way of doing things. They may be used in certain schools; I don't deny that. However, this isn't the watchword we want. Instead we have to work together in the community to ensure that young people become aware. Sometimes young people are even ashamed of being francophone because they live in an anglophone sea, and it is hard for them to assert themselves when they leave their environment. However, we can help young people integrate into their community, outside the walls of the school. It isn't fair for the school to do that.

I like your question, which is central to the next summit.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

I see that, in British Columbia, for example, knowledge of French is considered an asset, and since it's considered as such, it isn't a burden for young people. However, I see that, in a number of other places, the francophone fact is viewed as the focus of an ethnic battle. I believe that the sooner people realize that French adds value to communication, rather than think that it is specific to an ethnic identity, the sooner the battle will be won.

I can't wait to hear what you have to say, Josée.

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

Thank you for giving me the floor.

This isn't specifically related to legal issues. However, as you know, justice occurs in all fields, whether it be in education, health or other fields. I'll answer your question very briefly.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Justice and sociology go together.

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

That's correct. We have our noses in virtually everything.

I've lived with the problem you referred to, as a parent of children who spoke no English before starting school. They didn't learn English at school, but rather in the school yard, which reflects what you were saying earlier.

The main incentive that must be used, which also comes from the justice field, is promoting this aspect of pride. Our country's linguistic duality is a source of pride. In addition to increasing public awareness, we must restore the francophone and anglophone populations' sense of pride and belonging to the culture, through Canada's language rights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Lauzon now has the floor.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to all our witnesses.

Mr. Paul, I appreciated your comments about assimilation. I've previously experienced assimilation, and, as you mentioned, at one point I was ashamed of being francophone in an entirely anglophone village. It was very difficult. I learned French as an adult, despite a name like Guy Lauzon. That's a bit weird, but that's my life.

Unless I'm mistaken, you said that there were 150,000 students at 600 schools, or something like that.

What percentage of those 150,000 students are of francophone origin?

[Roger Paul]

That's a good question. First of all, as a former executive director of your riding's school board, I appreciate your comments. The riding included Prescott-Russell, which is very francophone, and Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, which are a little less francophone.

Perhaps I could answer you by citing the example of Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, which are good examples of francophone communities in Canada.

The emphasis is put on the admission of students who are entitled to French-language education. We admit what are called rights holders to our schools. There are all kinds of rights holders. There are those who speak fluent French. Those are francophones who have learned French and master it. There are rights holders who have lost their French language, somewhat like the case to which you referred.

That means we have to try to "refrancize" those students who have lost their French. This approach depends on the region where you are. As I managed Prescott-Russell and Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, the strategies that had to be put in place at a completely francophone school were different from those of a school where a number of students didn't speak the language.

I don't have the figures you want, but I imagine I could find them. Sometimes it's complicated. You have to distinguish between rights holders and non-rights holders.

My daughter was teaching kindergarten. She had 20 pupils in the morning and 20 in the afternoon. So she taught 40 pupils. Some of the 20 students in a single class did not master the language. Those many students, more than 50% of the class, were rights holders who had lost their French.

The strategies for relearning French or for francizing rights holders and non-rights holders are the same. So you can have pur laine rights holders and non-rights holders. To establish strategies in our schools, we have to consider both francization and "refrancization".

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

There's a big difference. Speaking French is one thing; being francophone is a something else entirely.

As you know, a lot of francophones in my riding don't speak French. It's a bit odd.

Last week, we heard from witnesses from British Columbia. They have 300,000 students in French-language schools and only 70,000 of them are francophones. So what do they do? They teach French to anglophones.

Mr. St-Pierre, you mentioned that the francophone population in Yukon has tripled.

[Régis St-Pierre]

It has virtually tripled.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

In how many years?

[Régis St-Pierre]

Briefly, according to Statistics Canada, there were about 500 francophones in 1981. There were 1,250 in 2001-2006. The statistics that will be published will probably indicate 1,400 francophones.

So it went from 400 francophones in the 1970s to 500 in the 1980s, followed by an enormous boom.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

What are the reasons for that?

[Régis St-Pierre]

There are three factors, including the assimilation rate, which was virtually 100%. So there was no linguistic continuity. Today it's 50%, and the upcoming figures will be even more optimistic. We're talking about migration and immigration here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Aubin.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, everyone.

At the outset, I would like to tip my hat and congratulate you for the incredible work you are doing across Canada. As I wasn't elected at the time, I didn't have the opportunity to do the cross-Canada tour. So I've just discovered the extent of your work from your testimony and that of the witnesses who preceded you. I'm really impressed. I am of Quebec origin and therefore from a province where the majority of the population speaks French, but where we nevertheless have to fight constantly for the survival of that language. This means that I can only express my respect for you in your situation.

You're really the ones who offer the outreach services, regardless of the organization you work for. Do actions like those taken in recent weeks, the appointments of a unilingual English judge and auditor, trigger a wave of discouragement in your organizations causing your members and participants to lose motivation? Do they question the utility of all these efforts in this context where there are no leading lights?

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

The situation has a demoralizing effect and triggers some cynicism. We're working a lot and the results are convincing. However, these kinds of appointments raise doubts in people's minds. We wonder how to reverse the trend, but we feel we don't have the necessary tools to send a clear message that would be heard by decision-makers. Yes, that definitely has a demoralizing effect.

[Roger Paul]

I would even go a little further with regard to the purpose and promotion of French-language schools. Linguistic duality is a foundation and value of our country, which was built on that platform. I will head in the direction opposite that of the questions that Mr. Galipeau and Mr. Lauzon asked about the value-added of the francophonie. It definitely has one. When parents register their children at a French-language school in Canada, they're told they shouldn't worry because their children will emerge from that school perfectly bilingual.

Why is it important for them to be perfectly bilingual? I don't think we have to go on at length about the advantages that entails. Before even being registered at our French-language schools, they know they'll be perfectly bilingual. Linguistic duality is consistent with the objectives and foundations of Canada. They're told that, by being perfectly bilingual, they'll be able to find work more easily than unilingual individuals.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Paul.

Ms. Forest-Niesing, do you have anything to add?

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

The reaction depends on the person and that person's training. Among lawyers, as you can probably guess, although we've experienced enormous disappointment, this situation urges us, forces us to reflect more on the importance of complying with the legal aspects related to that.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you. Mr. Paul's answer to Mr. Bélanger's question leads in to my second question.

We are here to evaluate the first Roadmap, which appears to be producing excellent results, which I'm glad about, and we're already planning the next one. I nevertheless wonder about consultation mechanisms. It was in that respect that Mr. Paul opened a door.

When there are consultations, do you get the impression you are showing up like beggars who have come looking for a grant for the survival of their organization or as real partners? Would you have any suggestions to ensure this consultation makes each of you genuine partners before, during and after the Roadmap? I believe you had a suggestion to make in that regard.

[Roger Paul]

There are two parts to my suggestion regarding this consultation mechanism.

Not so long ago, a number of organizations were called upon to submit their views to Canadian Heritage on the implementation of the Roadmap. Next week, as I mentioned at the start of my presentation, the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones will be coordinating the National Education Table at which 12 national organizations will be sitting. Consequently, next week, Canadian Heritage will be using the National Education Table for consultation purposes.

However, perhaps your question is more about the various school boards. When Canadian Heritage meets with the representatives of the various departments of education, it doesn't invite the school boards. I understand why it doesn't invite them: under the current ground rules, it isn't allowed to do so. The purpose of the meeting is to talk about education priorities, but one key player isn't at the table.

At the start of my presentation, I mentioned a tripartite committee consisting of representatives of the federal and provincial governments, the school boards and the community. We think this is working. Why wouldn't it work when the people of the provinces and territories are being consulted?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Aubin.

Mr. Trottier, go ahead, please.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thanks to our guests for being here this morning.

I wanted to talk to you about French-language education. I live in Toronto, where a smorgasbord of choices of school boards and francophone education programs is offered. It's quite phenomenal. There is a public francophone school board and a Catholic francophone school board. The anglophone system also offers French immersion programs.

Having a French-language education is genuinely perceived as an asset in Toronto, the country's old anglophone fortress. There are so many requests for French-language education there that many parents, without being rights holders, register their children at francophone school board schools. This creates some conflict among parents because francophones are seeing some dilution in the quality of education provided. Consequently, some children who don't speak a word of French, like their parents, attend French-language schools.

What are your recommendations or observations based on your school board experience?

[Roger Paul]

It's true there are variety of school boards in Canada. Ontario, more specifically, has Catholic and public francophone school boards. That situation is no different from that of Ontario's English-language school boards, one-third of which are Catholic and two-thirds public, in accordance with the rights guaranteed under section 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867.

You referred to this kind of mixed quality at certain schools, that is to say that certain students are more proficient in the language than others. As I told Mr. Lauzon earlier, teachers are professionals. I cited the example of my daughter. When you don't master the language, that comes into play in kindergarten. However, how much time does it take for a pupil to master the language? In fact, that's not a problem. In six months, students who spoke no French when they entered the school manage to get along in French, even though they may not be as good as their francophone classmates.

I experienced that situation at my school board in Prescott-Russell. This is a good example of what I often refer to. It's the most francophone school board in Canada—apart from those in New Brunswick—because it's on the Quebec border. When we established that those students had a right to learn French, that they were rights holders, the teachers wondered how they were going to teach them French with other students in the same class who master the language. Then they developed strategies to francize them, and they worked.

The best example is Mr. Lauzon's riding. The riding of Glengarry—Prescott—Russell is very francophone, whereas the riding of Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry is very anglophone. However, the strategies for teaching the students French worked.

In six months, it's possible to teach students to speak French. It's not that big a challenge. People who observe the situation from the outside, not knowing how things work, believe it's a major challenge. Talk to the members of the management of the schools and to the teachers for those children, including my daughter, and you'll see. Is it difficult? Without a doubt. Would it be better to have homogenous classes? Probably. However, this is feasible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Let's change—

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Please be brief.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Briefly, how can we measure performance? There are the censuses, but do you have any other recommendations for the next version of the Roadmap that we could include in a report?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Paul, go ahead, please.

[Roger Paul]

Are you talking about student performance measures?

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Yes.

[Roger Paul]

We're talking about francization. I'm going to talk about the province I know best, even though I have an idea of what goes on elsewhere in Canada. You're from Toronto, aren't you? There are proficiency tests—

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Please be brief.

[Roger Paul]

There are linguistic proficiency tests, of course, tests administered by the Education Quality and Accountability Office. Our grade 3 francophone students have had better results than the anglophone students in Ontario for approximately six or seven years. We previously didn't have good results. Is that directly related to the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality? I would say that a good part of Roadmap funding has been used to help us help our students.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Ms. Michaud, go ahead, please.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Welcome, everyone. Thank you very much for being here.

I would particularly like to thank you, Mr. Blais and Mr. St-Pierre, for your warm welcome at the general meeting held on November 12. I had a chance to attend it and it was very enriching. I learned a little more about your community, particularly since I had not had a chance to take part in the tour of the north, for which I hope we'll be able to prepare a report in response to your request, which we've heard loud and clear here in committee.

Mr. St-Pierre, you briefly raised the issue of immigration and the migration of your population. Could you say more about that and perhaps say specifically how the next Roadmap might propose initiatives to help you address those issues, which are very significant in your community?

[Régis St-Pierre]

In percentage terms, the Franco-Yukon immigrant population is the third most francophone immigrant population: nearly 15% of our francophone population in the Yukon comes from outside the country. That's why it's essential that the funding provided under the Roadmap reaches all the provinces and territories. It's important for a territory such as ours, which had no structure for francophone immigration until 2005-2006, to be able to receive adequate funding to build a network so that we can conduct follow-up. However, it goes beyond that. We're currently receiving funding for recruitment from Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

I said that people are currently in Europe doing recruitment, but when they arrive in Yukon, that same department, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, signs service agreements. These are people who offer services to immigrants. Those services are currently offered in English only in the Yukon, which is a good way for them to be assimilated from the outset. It's illogical.

The Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality is a good thing, but the government must operate logically in delivering services. In future, it should ensure that service provided to citizens is fair for everyone because we want to improve people's lives. The Yukon is a bilingual territory under Canadian legislation.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

If I understand correctly, it's important for you that the government promptly consider this issue of immigrant integration in the minority communities.

[Régis St-Pierre]

Yes, because it's important to understand that there are a lot of differences between French as a second language, immersion French and French as a first language. In Canada, we have trouble explaining that. Imagine what it means to explain that to someone who comes from another country. We need good intake, integration and ongoing support for family literacy, even before primary school. It is important for these people to receive the same service.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for the representatives of the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc. I believe you provide services that are very important for Canadians across the country. It's very important to have access to essential services such as yours in one's mother tongue.

My riding of Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier is home to the federal penitentiary of Donnacona, which I recently visited. I was told there was some trouble providing services in English to anglophone populations since their clientele comes from virtually everywhere. If Bill C-10 is passed, there could be a significant increase in the number of inmates. Do you think that may have an impact on the services that lawyers provide in a correctional setting?

What initiatives should appear in the next Roadmap to address this potential population increase?

[Rénald Rémillard]

We have received few requests from the correctional community. That at least is what I conclude on the basis of what my AJEFs report to me. There have been presentations and discussions on the subject. Requests could of course eventually become more frequent. Everything related to the prison or correctional community is related more to careers in justice. We discussed that in our presentation, with respect to Ontario. Most lawyers associations are doing similar things, various types of projects.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

But if we wanted to ensure that more people in that community could provide services in French, there might eventually be a need to promote that practice, among other things.

[Rénald Rémillard]

That would indeed be a way. Perhaps it should also be determined whether there aren't any other ways of reaching that population for which those services are indeed important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thanks to the witnesses, my fellow lawyers and the other participants.

Imagine that this is 2014 and the Roadmap is about to expire. Mr. Bélanger is the Prime Minister of Canada and Mr. Godin is minister of finance, a scenario that would delight B.C. francophones I'm sure. However, a few European countries are bankrupt, as is the United States, and we now have to make some very tough decisions.

Mr. Bélanger, we imagine you're the Prime Minister of Canada. We can't invest $1.1 billion in another Roadmap. We're your advisors. What can we do to maintain the vitality of French in my province, British Columbia, and in other Canadian provinces in the absence of that financial support?

We'll begin with Mr. Paul.

[Roger Paul]

If I clearly understand your question, Mr. Weston, you're asking—and I'll disregard who the prime minister is, if you don't mind—what we can do in British Columbia, where you're from, without the $1.1 billion investment. Is that what you are asking?

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Yes.

[Roger Paul]

That's an excellent question.

I can tell you that the $1.1 billion investment has enabled us to achieve a large number of objectives. Here I'm thinking about a school board, about where things are happening in the field, in education, among other things.

In response to a question from one of your colleagues, earlier I mentioned that we had made so much progress thanks to the Roadmap that it would be unfortunate not to be able to rely on that support in future. We have an enormous number of objectives still to achieve, but that has helped us reach a certain cruising speed. The government shouldn't tell us overnight that we'll no longer be receiving the support which is so necessary for our communities.

I realize I'm not answering your question directly. The school boards will continue managing, but not in the same way. We talked especially about francization and culture. Are the costs higher at a French-language school board than at an English-language school board? Look at Ontario's funding in that area. What is Ontario's funding based on? Among other things, it's based on the fact that these people receive support.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Mr. St-Pierre, what do you think?

[Régis St-Pierre]

We talked about foundations. We've built something that is starting to be solid. Like any foundation, if you remove a pillar from it, it can collapse. It must be understood that, if the minor funding that Yukon receives for health partnership services is cut, there'll be nothing left. I have statistics on our cultural activities last year. The Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality provides $22.5 million for the vitality of the francophone communities, and we have reached 10,000 participants, whereas the population of Yukon is 35,000 inhabitants. We're very proud of that, and we're integrated into the community.

We talked about education, but education starts at birth. So I don't see any sectors in our community because we're growing and we had no services for a long time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Weston.

Mr. Harris, go ahead, please.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thanks very much for being here today.

I would like us to continue on the topic Mr. Weston briefly addressed. I believe that, if there is a lack of funding in future, we must ensure that we don't waste one dollar. This goes back to the study on the north. We've already spent $100,000 of taxpayers' money on that study, and if we don't finish it, that will be money wasted.

Earlier you talked about the cynicism triggered by the appointment of a unilingual auditor general and unilingual judges. If we don't complete the northern study after all that's been done, do you think that might undermine relations and provoke cynicism in Yukon?

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

The important thing is to see how to support the cultural communities across the country. If we set aside cynicism, I believe you have to see that the next linguistic investment priorities must enable us to be more competitive.

Mr. Weston, you talked about what might be a good idea for investing in the French fact outside Quebec. When people come and see Yukon, they're surprised to see that there are francophones. That supports tourism and our industry. Ultimately, investing culturally in our official languages secures an economic benefit for a number of our places, and we see that improves things in the Yukon. I believe we have to go through with the process because the results are decisive: things are better.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Let's go back to education. I'm the product of the French-language school system in Toronto. Even in that city, people are surprised to see that there are francophones. When I was young, our schools were part of English-language school boards. The money set aside for the francophone community went into general revenue, and we didn't receive all the money owed us. That changed in the 1990s, and I believe we're starting to see the results now because those changes take years to become apparent.

Mr. Galipeau talked about the school yard. That's completely true. We spoke English in the school yard, but French in the classroom and in the school. That didn't really undermine our education, but instead gave us a chance to speak both languages and become bilingual.

However, the real challenge came when we left school. There are a lot of francophones in Toronto, but there isn't a major central community. So it was really difficult to speak French after I left school. Honestly, I spoke a lot more French in northern Alberta last year than in Toronto in five years as a result of all those people who go there to work.

Last week, representatives of the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario talked about immersion because it's very important to teach anglophones to speak French in order to improve the environment in which francophones will have to live as a minority.

Do you have any comments to make on immersion courses for anglophones, in order to improve their situation?

[Roger Paul]

You're very proficient in French—I congratulate you on that—because you had access to an education in French.

The Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones definitely has not promoted immersion schools. That's not our mandate. Our role is to promote French-language schools. Is there a difference between a French-language school and an immersion school? Absolutely. Immersion schools enable students to become bilingual, to learn the language. French-language schools have a twofold mission. Students must of course be able to learn both languages there. Allowing someone to come into our schools just to learn French is out of the question. In our schools, French is the priority language, but students are perfectly bilingual when they leave our schools. I assure you of that.

Whatever the case may be, there is a difference between an immersion school and a French-language school. The main difference is that we offer more than language: we offer language and culture; language and community. Francophiles and anglophones are definitely welcome in our all community organizations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Menegakis.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'd simply like to make a brief comment—

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you for coming to meet with us today and for giving us your presentations.

My first question is for Mr. Blais and Mr. St-Pierre.

Cultural programs are very important for our young people and seniors. Are cultural programs available in French in the Yukon?

[Régis St-Pierre]

Yes. We really have to thank the Canadian government. Here I'm talking about the community component and about Canadian Heritage's Cultural Development Fund. Many initiatives introduced through Roadmap funding have been implemented in the Yukon thanks to that.

I'll give you an actual example. At the Olympic Games in 2010, the Franco-Yukon musical group Soir de Semaine, which represented the Yukon's cultural component, appeared on an international stage. Imagine that. That was in front of 50,000 people at BC Place. And that's thanks to our constant work and our determination to have a real culture. We're talking about people who were born in Yukon, grew up there and are still living there. In many cases, they went to school in French. That's very important for us.

We talk about school a lot. However, for my children, the school yard is Facebook and the Internet. There are a lot of school yards. I'm in Ottawa, and when my child sends me a message in French on Facebook, that warms my heart. For me, that represents the vitality of a cultural community. To answer your question, yes, it's essential to the development of our communities.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Is it easy to get health care in French?

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

A few days ago, my wife gave birth to our second child, whose name is François-Xavier. He's a healthy little boy.

Although the care in Whitehorse is excellent, at no point did we have access to a nurse who was able to speak to us in French. Of course, the doctors were unilingual anglophones. Fortunately, we're bilingual, but imagine what the situation would have been for unilingual francophones. The experience would no doubt have been intensely stressful. Those of you here who are parents can understand that. We didn't have access to services in French, but fortunately most francophones can understand English. Health care is essentially offered in English only.

Régis can add his comments on that subject.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

I have a general question for all of you.

Could you tell us exactly where you want to see improvements in the Roadmap?

[Régis St-Pierre]

I can start.

The Roadmap is a like a toolbox. There are a lot of tools. There are technologically very advanced tools. A lot of investments have been made in certain networks. For example, education will receive 50% of all funding.

It must be understood that, in remote regions such as Yukon, a report has been prepared by the Canadian government—the Department of Canadian Heritage funded it—which explains that we often haven't had those investments in the north in the past. We haven't had French-language schools for 50 years; we've just built our first schools and child care facilities. So support for community activities is extremely essential for the very remote communities.

In some cases, if there weren't French-language health networks, there would be nothing in French. If there was no economic development funding supported by the Roadmap, there would be no French-language chambers of commerce. There would be nothing.

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

Let me tell you that one of the points that often comes up in my speeches and exchanges on the importance of promoting access to justice in French is this entire issue of awareness. I would really like to see a focus on the importance of making both the francophone and anglophone communities aware of linguistic duality and to instill that sense of pride that is lacking in certain places.

Allow me to add something a little more pragmatic. Here you have brought together organizations consisting of individuals who have excellent training, abilities and skills that they can make proper use of as a result of stable funding provided by the Roadmap.

If we are required to advance on a project-by-project basis, we become preoccupied by the survival of our organization and cannot use our qualifications and expertise properly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, I will say that Mr. Weston took a jab at me earlier, by saying that I might be the Minister of Finance and that if we were appearing in British Columbia, people would take a dim view of it, meaning that I would be a spender.

I simply want it on the record that I would not have spent $185,000 to hire a headhunter to find an auditor general who is unable to speak French. I can guarantee that I wouldn't have spent the money. Instead I would have invested it in child care centres because that's how the francophone community will be consolidated. There are places where you have to spend money. I would make sure not to change the system or policies. For example, the Minister of Foreign Affairs has asked for business cards in English only because I think he was afraid of the francophonie. These are things that I definitely wouldn't do. If I were Minister of Finance, the money wouldn't be spent on that.

It's good to spend money. We have the Roadmap and all those things, but at the same time there have to be symbols. I'm coming back to that because it's important. We spend, and I believe the government is saying that it has spent 40% more than the Liberals. However, let's think about the symbol. Auditors general have been bilingual for 20 years, and the government turns around and says it has the right to select someone who is a unilingual anglophone because anglophones are entitled to have jobs. I think that's an insult to anglophones because those who have taken the trouble to learn French don't qualify for those jobs. That's an insult to anglophones, if you look at things from that angle.

Do you agree with me that it's a matter of respect? We also have to stop at symbols, the big symbols. The appointments the government has made are setting us back 50 years. It's time to move forward and to acknowledge that, in Canada... I often hear the government say that more people in British Columbia speak Chinese than French. It has to be acknowledged that, when people from other countries decided to come here, to Canada, there were two official languages, which were English and French, and two peoples that built this country together with the aboriginal peoples. It's respect for those two peoples that we want. Based on that, people who come here have to learn our two official languages or one of them. That's what has to be done. The day the Conservative government learns and respects that, the disputes between the anglophone and francophone communities will stop. It involves people in conflicts that should not occur.

Do you agree with me or not?

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

Who are you putting the question to?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Just a minute, there is a point of order.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

It's just to shed some light on Mr. Godin's question.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

It's a point of order or a comment?

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

You're asking whether people agree with you, but your preamble was so long that our witnesses are finding it hard to answer.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That's not a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

At every meeting, we have to raise that point, which is not really a point of order.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

It's up to the witnesses, not to you Conservatives, to decide whether it's too long or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

The chair has the floor.

It's not a point of order.

Ms. Forest-Niesing has the floor.

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

Thank you.

Funding is clearly essential, but it's also clear that actions must be accompanied by dollars. I talked about awareness and pride. The Prime Minister of our country and the government he leads obviously have a responsibility in that regard. They have not only a responsibility, but also legal obligations in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

All right.

Mr. Paul.

[Roger Paul]

I won't ask you to repeat the question.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

It's not a problem for me to repeat it.

[Roger Paul]

I'm teasing you, sir.

In response to the brief question, which I understood, as to whether bilingualism and symbols are important, my answer is: absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Briefly, Mr. Blais.

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

I agree with Mr. Paul and Ms. Forest-Niesing. Bilingualism is important and it is appropriate to support it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Galipeau now has the floor.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

I find it a bit uncomfortable that the official languages committee is being used to advance demagogic arguments. Canada's linguistic duality is essential to the country's very survival. There are a lot of ways to do that and not to do it, such as engaging in political polarization when we should be working together. Since this question is repeatedly raised at every meeting, I would like to take the few minutes allotted me to emphasize that I was one of the members most disappointed by the appointment of an auditor general who is not bilingual.

When that appointment was made, I mounted the barricades to inquire about the mistake that had been made. Here's the question that I asked: do you want me to believe that there isn't an auditor anywhere in the country who is as qualified as the one we've hired, who isn't also bilingual? The answer I received is as follows: there are auditors in the country who are probably as qualified as the one hired, but they did not apply for the job. There was one in the running until the last minute, and then he withdrew his application. When you hire someone, you don't choose from among the most qualified candidates, but from among the most qualified who apply for the position. That's not something that's pleasant to hear, but we always have to hear it.

I spent six years on the board of directors of the Ottawa Public Library.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Sir, "point d'ordre" is not a term in French.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Mr. Godin has a point of order.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

The auditor never applied for the job. I just want to ensure that's noted.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

That's not a point of order.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

I don't think that's a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

It's not a point of order. Thank you, Mr. Galipeau. It's a point of information.

Mr. Galipeau, go ahead, please.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

One of the problems at a number of organizations where French is important is that francophones have to submit their applications. That's the way it is in the administration of justice, in the health administration, in education and among auditors—the point of this discussion. As regards the headhunter that was hired this time, I hope he will never be hired again. As regards the other headhunters...

We currently have to hire a librarian for the Library of Parliament. First, I must say that we've retained a different headhunter. Those of you who have some influence in your communities, make sure the best bilingual librarians apply for this job because it's a very good position.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Galipeau.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

I believe I may have used up all the available time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

There's no time left. The last three minutes are allotted to Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I followed that exchange with interest because, as my colleagues will remember, I have an outstanding motion. That motion asks that we invite the headhunter in question to appear, the one who suggested the candidacy of Mr. Ferguson, who himself said he did not apply.

In the spirit of cooperation that Mr. Galipeau evokes or invokes, perhaps it would be pleasant to see whether we could indeed have the headhunter appear in order to get to the bottom of the matter. I believe that is part of the work and duty of this committee. Notice to interested parties.

Talking about notices, I'm going to take the opportunity afforded me—and I thank you for it—to give another notice of motion, given the presence of some of our witnesses this morning. The clerk will obviously receive the following motion in due form.

That the Committee travel to Nunavut in winter 2012 to complete its tour of the territories begun in 2011 as part of the study undertaken in the 3^rd Session of the 40^th Parliament on the development of linguistic duality in northern Canada, and table a follow-up report in the House of Commons before the summer recess in 2012.

We'll see at the appropriate time.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

The night before 2012!

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

We'll see whether there is a willingness to cooperate.

Mr. Chairman, I'm going to use the time I have left to return to the lawyer issue.

Does your organization compile statistics on judges that are appointed and on their language skills?

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

Mr. Rémillard can undoubtedly answer you on that subject, but I may have some comments to add.

[Rénald Rémillard]

The bilingual capability of judges is evaluated very much unofficially. Generally it's lawyers who are able to say, during an appearance, whether that person is able to understand French. That's often done by the lawyers' association, which is able to identify actual deficiencies when people appear. There is no external evaluation scale as such. There was a brief mention of a competency grid and the Centre canadien de français juridique, where they talk about that competency grid. It's in the process of being established to determine how to measure that competency.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

The Beaulac decision—with which you are no doubt familiar—is a Supreme Court decision that requires an institutional capacity in all tribunals under the Government of Canada's jurisdiction.

Don't you believe there should be that kind of grid, that kind of proficiency? I admit that I have been concerned for five years. With all the judges appointed, have we maintained a bilingual capability in our courts? It's important to know that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Bélanger.

Ms. Forest-Niesing, your answer will have to be brief.

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

Yes, it will be brief.

Have we maintained it? We've just experienced a very disappointing situation, a setback, on the Supreme Court of Canada, which is the highest court in our bilingual country. The judicial appointments process is a very confidential process, for both the person who applies and for the entire process.

However, as Mr. Rémillard said, the evaluation is done unofficially. There is work to be done in that regard. I believe the competency grid that the Centre canadien de français juridique is proposing will give that aspect more credibility.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Will you be sharing that grid with us?

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

We will be pleased to do so as soon as it is ready.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thanks to our witnesses for their presentations.

The meeting is adjourned.