Official Languages Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2011

[Roger Paul]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Galipeau.

At the outset, I would say you're right that we can no longer achieve positive results through coercive measures. When I was executive director of a school board, the watchword was not to shout "Speak French" because that wasn't how you got results.

In any case, the watchword doesn't just come from the school or school board. It isn't just their role to ensure the francophone community takes charge of itself. It's a matter that is up to the community and that depends on the support of all our partners.

Earlier I mentioned the theme of the next summit, which will provide us with education orientations for the Canadian francophone community. I want to point out that that isn't just the business of school boards. All the communities will be around the table to discuss orientation and civic engagement. If citizens help each other in ensuring the vitality and continued existence of French in their communities, that will work.

We can no longer afford to manage our schools as the majority does. In addition to learning mathematics, science and French, there is increasing cultural awareness. We've just developed a pan-Canadian framework for the assimilation of culture in the French-language schools. The most important thing is not to speak French, but rather to belong to a community.

We must all ask ourselves how we can contribute to that community. However, that must not be done just at school. Youth have to be led into their community, to contribute to it, in addition to raising their awareness. Civic community schools must establish bi-directional links. We must stop asking the people in our communities to help in the schools. Once they've helped in the schools, they have nothing to do. Instead, the schools must move out of their setting and into the community. That's where you see the importance of a vibrant community.

So you're right in saying that coercive measures are no longer a way of doing things. They may be used in certain schools; I don't deny that. However, this isn't the watchword we want. Instead we have to work together in the community to ensure that young people become aware. Sometimes young people are even ashamed of being francophone because they live in an anglophone sea, and it is hard for them to assert themselves when they leave their environment. However, we can help young people integrate into their community, outside the walls of the school. It isn't fair for the school to do that.

I like your question, which is central to the next summit.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

I see that, in British Columbia, for example, knowledge of French is considered an asset, and since it's considered as such, it isn't a burden for young people. However, I see that, in a number of other places, the francophone fact is viewed as the focus of an ethnic battle. I believe that the sooner people realize that French adds value to communication, rather than think that it is specific to an ethnic identity, the sooner the battle will be won.

I can't wait to hear what you have to say, Josée.

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

Thank you for giving me the floor.

This isn't specifically related to legal issues. However, as you know, justice occurs in all fields, whether it be in education, health or other fields. I'll answer your question very briefly.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Justice and sociology go together.

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

That's correct. We have our noses in virtually everything.

I've lived with the problem you referred to, as a parent of children who spoke no English before starting school. They didn't learn English at school, but rather in the school yard, which reflects what you were saying earlier.

The main incentive that must be used, which also comes from the justice field, is promoting this aspect of pride. Our country's linguistic duality is a source of pride. In addition to increasing public awareness, we must restore the francophone and anglophone populations' sense of pride and belonging to the culture, through Canada's language rights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Lauzon now has the floor.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to all our witnesses.

Mr. Paul, I appreciated your comments about assimilation. I've previously experienced assimilation, and, as you mentioned, at one point I was ashamed of being francophone in an entirely anglophone village. It was very difficult. I learned French as an adult, despite a name like Guy Lauzon. That's a bit weird, but that's my life.

Unless I'm mistaken, you said that there were 150,000 students at 600 schools, or something like that.

What percentage of those 150,000 students are of francophone origin?

[Roger Paul]

That's a good question. First of all, as a former executive director of your riding's school board, I appreciate your comments. The riding included Prescott-Russell, which is very francophone, and Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, which are a little less francophone.

Perhaps I could answer you by citing the example of Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, which are good examples of francophone communities in Canada.

The emphasis is put on the admission of students who are entitled to French-language education. We admit what are called rights holders to our schools. There are all kinds of rights holders. There are those who speak fluent French. Those are francophones who have learned French and master it. There are rights holders who have lost their French language, somewhat like the case to which you referred.

That means we have to try to "refrancize" those students who have lost their French. This approach depends on the region where you are. As I managed Prescott-Russell and Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, the strategies that had to be put in place at a completely francophone school were different from those of a school where a number of students didn't speak the language.

I don't have the figures you want, but I imagine I could find them. Sometimes it's complicated. You have to distinguish between rights holders and non-rights holders.

My daughter was teaching kindergarten. She had 20 pupils in the morning and 20 in the afternoon. So she taught 40 pupils. Some of the 20 students in a single class did not master the language. Those many students, more than 50% of the class, were rights holders who had lost their French.

The strategies for relearning French or for francizing rights holders and non-rights holders are the same. So you can have pur laine rights holders and non-rights holders. To establish strategies in our schools, we have to consider both francization and "refrancization".

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

There's a big difference. Speaking French is one thing; being francophone is a something else entirely.

As you know, a lot of francophones in my riding don't speak French. It's a bit odd.

Last week, we heard from witnesses from British Columbia. They have 300,000 students in French-language schools and only 70,000 of them are francophones. So what do they do? They teach French to anglophones.

Mr. St-Pierre, you mentioned that the francophone population in Yukon has tripled.

[Régis St-Pierre]

It has virtually tripled.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

In how many years?

[Régis St-Pierre]

Briefly, according to Statistics Canada, there were about 500 francophones in 1981. There were 1,250 in 2001-2006. The statistics that will be published will probably indicate 1,400 francophones.

So it went from 400 francophones in the 1970s to 500 in the 1980s, followed by an enormous boom.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

What are the reasons for that?

[Régis St-Pierre]

There are three factors, including the assimilation rate, which was virtually 100%. So there was no linguistic continuity. Today it's 50%, and the upcoming figures will be even more optimistic. We're talking about migration and immigration here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Aubin.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, everyone.

At the outset, I would like to tip my hat and congratulate you for the incredible work you are doing across Canada. As I wasn't elected at the time, I didn't have the opportunity to do the cross-Canada tour. So I've just discovered the extent of your work from your testimony and that of the witnesses who preceded you. I'm really impressed. I am of Quebec origin and therefore from a province where the majority of the population speaks French, but where we nevertheless have to fight constantly for the survival of that language. This means that I can only express my respect for you in your situation.

You're really the ones who offer the outreach services, regardless of the organization you work for. Do actions like those taken in recent weeks, the appointments of a unilingual English judge and auditor, trigger a wave of discouragement in your organizations causing your members and participants to lose motivation? Do they question the utility of all these efforts in this context where there are no leading lights?

[Jean-Sébastien Blais]

The situation has a demoralizing effect and triggers some cynicism. We're working a lot and the results are convincing. However, these kinds of appointments raise doubts in people's minds. We wonder how to reverse the trend, but we feel we don't have the necessary tools to send a clear message that would be heard by decision-makers. Yes, that definitely has a demoralizing effect.

[Roger Paul]

I would even go a little further with regard to the purpose and promotion of French-language schools. Linguistic duality is a foundation and value of our country, which was built on that platform. I will head in the direction opposite that of the questions that Mr. Galipeau and Mr. Lauzon asked about the value-added of the francophonie. It definitely has one. When parents register their children at a French-language school in Canada, they're told they shouldn't worry because their children will emerge from that school perfectly bilingual.

Why is it important for them to be perfectly bilingual? I don't think we have to go on at length about the advantages that entails. Before even being registered at our French-language schools, they know they'll be perfectly bilingual. Linguistic duality is consistent with the objectives and foundations of Canada. They're told that, by being perfectly bilingual, they'll be able to find work more easily than unilingual individuals.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Paul.

Ms. Forest-Niesing, do you have anything to add?

[Josée Forest-Niesing]

The reaction depends on the person and that person's training. Among lawyers, as you can probably guess, although we've experienced enormous disappointment, this situation urges us, forces us to reflect more on the importance of complying with the legal aspects related to that.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you. Mr. Paul's answer to Mr. Bélanger's question leads in to my second question.

We are here to evaluate the first Roadmap, which appears to be producing excellent results, which I'm glad about, and we're already planning the next one. I nevertheless wonder about consultation mechanisms. It was in that respect that Mr. Paul opened a door.

When there are consultations, do you get the impression you are showing up like beggars who have come looking for a grant for the survival of their organization or as real partners? Would you have any suggestions to ensure this consultation makes each of you genuine partners before, during and after the Roadmap? I believe you had a suggestion to make in that regard.

[Roger Paul]

There are two parts to my suggestion regarding this consultation mechanism.

Not so long ago, a number of organizations were called upon to submit their views to Canadian Heritage on the implementation of the Roadmap. Next week, as I mentioned at the start of my presentation, the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones will be coordinating the National Education Table at which 12 national organizations will be sitting. Consequently, next week, Canadian Heritage will be using the National Education Table for consultation purposes.

However, perhaps your question is more about the various school boards. When Canadian Heritage meets with the representatives of the various departments of education, it doesn't invite the school boards. I understand why it doesn't invite them: under the current ground rules, it isn't allowed to do so. The purpose of the meeting is to talk about education priorities, but one key player isn't at the table.

At the start of my presentation, I mentioned a tripartite committee consisting of representatives of the federal and provincial governments, the school boards and the community. We think this is working. Why wouldn't it work when the people of the provinces and territories are being consulted?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you, Mr. Aubin.

Mr. Trottier, go ahead, please.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thanks to our guests for being here this morning.

I wanted to talk to you about French-language education. I live in Toronto, where a smorgasbord of choices of school boards and francophone education programs is offered. It's quite phenomenal. There is a public francophone school board and a Catholic francophone school board. The anglophone system also offers French immersion programs.

Having a French-language education is genuinely perceived as an asset in Toronto, the country's old anglophone fortress. There are so many requests for French-language education there that many parents, without being rights holders, register their children at francophone school board schools. This creates some conflict among parents because francophones are seeing some dilution in the quality of education provided. Consequently, some children who don't speak a word of French, like their parents, attend French-language schools.

What are your recommendations or observations based on your school board experience?

[Roger Paul]

It's true there are variety of school boards in Canada. Ontario, more specifically, has Catholic and public francophone school boards. That situation is no different from that of Ontario's English-language school boards, one-third of which are Catholic and two-thirds public, in accordance with the rights guaranteed under section 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867.

You referred to this kind of mixed quality at certain schools, that is to say that certain students are more proficient in the language than others. As I told Mr. Lauzon earlier, teachers are professionals. I cited the example of my daughter. When you don't master the language, that comes into play in kindergarten. However, how much time does it take for a pupil to master the language? In fact, that's not a problem. In six months, students who spoke no French when they entered the school manage to get along in French, even though they may not be as good as their francophone classmates.

I experienced that situation at my school board in Prescott-Russell. This is a good example of what I often refer to. It's the most francophone school board in Canada—apart from those in New Brunswick—because it's on the Quebec border. When we established that those students had a right to learn French, that they were rights holders, the teachers wondered how they were going to teach them French with other students in the same class who master the language. Then they developed strategies to francize them, and they worked.

The best example is Mr. Lauzon's riding. The riding of Glengarry—Prescott—Russell is very francophone, whereas the riding of Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry is very anglophone. However, the strategies for teaching the students French worked.

In six months, it's possible to teach students to speak French. It's not that big a challenge. People who observe the situation from the outside, not knowing how things work, believe it's a major challenge. Talk to the members of the management of the schools and to the teachers for those children, including my daughter, and you'll see. Is it difficult? Without a doubt. Would it be better to have homogenous classes? Probably. However, this is feasible.