Official Languages Committee on Nov. 27th, 2013

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, commissioner, for bringing up Louis Riel and the complexity of the history involved and its meaning for our country. I'd also like to thank you on behalf of the anglophone community in Quebec. The anglo Québecoise groups like the QCGN, the CHSSN, and the QWF have all told me they're very delighted and satisfied with your work.

Commissioner, I must tell you what you've already heard many times: Anglophones in Quebec have felt abandoned by successive Liberal and Conservative governments in terms of protection of their language, or at the very least for not speaking up for them and their communities. In particular, I'm thinking here of seniors in Quebec, elderly Quebeckers.

I know that you've mentioned and looked into the plight of anglophone seniors in Quebec. Currently, as you may be aware, there's a transfer going on of Ste. Anne's Hospital from the federal government to the Province of Quebec. There's an intention to provide geriatric services at part of that hospital. The catchment area it touches would be my riding and Lac-Saint-Louis, both of which have quite substantial anglophone populations. Can you share with the committee any recommendations to guarantee the provision of anglophone services at this institution? What has the federal government done to ensure that anglophones are served in the official language of their choice at this hospital?

[Graham Fraser]

Well, when it was a veterans' hospital, it was a federal institution and we had relatively few complaints about the degree to which veterans were able to get services. One of the things we have done recently is to do a study of elderly anglophones in Quebec, and one of the things we observed was that there are, particularly off the island of Montreal, particular challenges for the elderly in getting health services in English. This is not so much from doctors—some 85% of doctors in Quebec are bilingual—but when the elderly are dealing with health services, they often don't get to deal with a doctor for many of their ailments and complaints. They're dealing with nurses, and nurses are much less likely to be bilingual. It is a challenge for the Quebec health system to have a sufficient number of bilingual health support staff who can serve the anglophone community.

One of the successes of the road map has been the funding of various health networks, including the language training program that was developed at McGill for teaching English to staff of the health provision institutions in Quebec. The last time I looked, I think there were 7,000—and now must be about 10,000—health care workers who have taken this course. There are limitations, nevertheless. When I was speaking to someone in Granby about how effective this had been, she told me that if a 14-year-old falls off his bicycle and breaks his arm, it means that the nurse at the local clinic can put his arm in a cast and serve him in English, but if you have a 55-year-old farmer who is suffering from early signs of Alzheimer's, that kind of service is much harder to find off the island of Montreal.

Part of what we did in our study was simply to identify the statistical services that are available and the various federal institutions that have some dealing with the elderly in Quebec. It was a process that helped lead to the creation of a new organization called Seniors Action Quebec.

In terms of transfer of responsibilities to specific institutions I think the same rules would apply: there has to be a language clause in the transfer and some kind verification mechanism to make sure those language clauses are being respected.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

To this date, do you know if the language clause has been inserted in the negotiations between the federal government and the province?

[Graham Fraser]

I can't tell you.

[Sylvain Giguère]

If I may, I can give you a partial answer. We tried to discuss this with the regional people, with Veterans Affairs in Montreal. They were not at the discussion table for this transfer. So we are trying to reach people in headquarters in Charlottetown to have more information. But it's clear we need to have this clause as a condition of the transfer.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

The clause would be similar to what happened, say, at Willow Place in Alberta, but obviously not with French. So would it be that type of clause you would recommend be inserted into the transfer?

[Graham Fraser]

There would have to be a clause ensuring that the language services that were provided when it was a federal institution would continue to be provided. In the same way that when Air Canada stopped being a crown corporation, there were clear clauses that ensured Air Canada continued to fall under the Official Languages Act.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Okay, that's somewhat reassuring, because some of my constituents are now going to Ontario for hospital services because we don't have a hospital in our region. So with the creation of this hospital I hope it will respond to the need.

You talked about the Seniors Action Quebec network. Could you paint a picture for us of what this group could do if it received federal funding as opposed to being a non-funded network?

[Graham Fraser]

I think it is very important as a source of information for anglophone seniors who don't have the same kind of statistical information, which we tried to provide in our study, and which is available to francophones outside Quebec.

One of the things that is often misunderstood about elderly anglophones in Quebec is that they are a generation that spent their working lives in Quebec when it was not essential for them to be bilingual in the workplace, and it was also a period of their lives when they didn't really need social services and they had only marginal contact with the state. Now they are retired, Quebec society has changed and they need health services. They need the social services network, and sometimes with the best will in the world those facilities are simply not available. In some cases this is putting a real burden on a younger generation.

I was visiting a community centre in a remote part of Quebec where a young anglophone woman had left home, got a university education, and had come back home to run this community organization. She kept being interrupted in her work because her mother needed an interpreter to deal with the social worker and the health care worker because they didn't have a common language. When I saw her have to interrupt a meeting with me to take a call from her mother and talk to the social worker, I realized in very concrete terms what this means for many people in the more remote parts, and sometimes not so remote parts, of Quebec. So I think the creation and support for this new organization could be very important in ensuring that seniors get the information they need.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Chisu.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Commissioner, for appearing in front of our committee, together with your staff. I would like to thank you very much for the extremely professional work that you are doing at the commission.

I would also like to thank you in French for the work you have done.

I would like to ask you a question regarding the “Roadmap for Canada's Official Languages”. We all know that supporting Canadian arts and culture in Canada helps support the official language minority linguistic communities. Can you speak about how the funding in the previous road maps from 2008 to 2013 has helped these communities thrive? Also, would you say the road map benefited Canadian linguistic communities?

[Graham Fraser]

Unquestionably. I think the road map has been a valuable contribution. One of the areas where the road map was an improvement over the previous plan was that there was a cultural component. I was subsequently told that the reason there had not been a cultural component in the predecessor plan was that the artistic community had simply not been at a level to be able to manage the funding. Seeing how the initial plan worked, they responded by organizing and creating networks that could apply for and handle the funding that was being proposed. It is an extremely important program for supporting linguistic duality in minority language communities.

As I said earlier, I think one of the most important aspects has been the health networks that were created, which is a kind of model for other networks that are being developed. I think the cultural component that was added in 2008 has been significant and played an important role.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Do you have any examples of this that you can share with us?

[Graham Fraser]

The example that I am most familiar with is the creation of the health networks, both for francophone health services across Canada and anglophone health services in Quebec. It was the funding that I referred to earlier that led to language training of staff. Various networks linking francophone health services across the country have been introduced so that much better communication takes place. We've seen, due to some road map funding and these health networks, Montfort Hospital developing important support relationships with other health care institutions across the country.

It has been a while since I've looked at the cultural component, so I don't have examples on the tip of my tongue, but I can get back to you later if you like. I will refresh my memory and get back to you.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much.

In your annual report you are discussing the new road map.

[Graham Fraser]

Yes.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

What are the strengths and weaknesses of this new initiative? At this point are you satisfied with the implementation of the new road map program?

[Graham Fraser]

There's one element of the new road map where I have questions, and that is the element of adding $120 million for language training for immigrants. I'm certainly not opposed to language training for immigrants, but at this point we don't have the information to see whether this language training for immigrants is going to support immigrant communities in minority language communities in Canada. It's a complex issue.

We've seen the expiry of the five-year immigration program that was designed to support immigration to French-speaking minority communities across Canada. We're not yet sure what the implications of that expiry are and what relationship, if any, there is to that $120 million.

I think that some of the strengths of the previous road map have been sustained. One of the things that I regret is that there have been some cuts for language training, which I think is unfortunate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay, thank you.

Monsieur Dionne Labelle, go ahead.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Good afternoon, Commissioner, ladies and gentlemen.

I will continue discussing the roadmap. We have now had several meetings. The committee has spent a number of sessions speaking with the beneficiaries of the roadmap. Most of the groups who benefited from it were satisfied with what they managed to accomplish, thanks to the roadmap funding. However, throughout the discussion, we kept hearing the same comment about the roadmap's lack of transparency. These organizations did not know whether the money came from the roadmap or other programs, nor how it transitioned through various federal agreements.

The second recommendation has to do with improving the management framework. Earlier, we were told that the amounts allocated for management were not included in the roadmap. Where are we heading? Are we due to repeat the mistakes of the first roadmap? Will the funding allocation be more clear with the new roadmap?

[Graham Fraser]

I am afraid I share your opinion of the problem you described. Is new funding being allocated for the new roadmap or will it come from existing programs that have been merged? It is often difficult for us to follow the spending of these funds.

I will ask Sylvain to provide you with more detail, since he spent more time discussing this issue with the departments.

[Sylvain Giguère]

We had discussions with several departments. Indeed, there are amounts, called A-base budgets, core funding for the departments, for which we have no details. We cannot arrive at an accurate assessment. We do not know what the new funding levels are.

There are some interesting things. With the former roadmap, amounts were allocated for pilot projects or projects that would end. In such cases, it is normal for certain amounts not to be reallocated. They are fairly rare, but we know less about those elements. It is difficult for us to do a complete and comprehensive assessment, since we do not have all the numbers. We cannot ask each department, for example Citizenship and Immigration Canada, how much money from its A-base budget...

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You have outlined a difficulty that we have as parliamentarians. You follow the roadmap very closely, but as parliamentarians, we have some difficulty doing so. We have often spoken of the need to implement a more transparent management framework, which all parliamentarians could use to track the allocation of funds. We do not seem to be at that point, however.

I continue to be astonished that this government would claim to be a good manager, whereas the facts show that it is a very poor administrator. I will not even mention the F-35s and destroyers, nor the missing $3 billion from the security fund, but I will raise the $1.124 billion allocated for this roadmap. We would like to know how this money will be spent. We would like to be able to track the money just as you can on a screen. Evidently, we will not be able to do so.

The Auditor General reviewed the three cases of administrative bungling I mentioned and agreed with us. Should there be an independent review of the roadmap management to find out what is going on, and to provide recommendations on the management?

[Graham Fraser]

That is an interesting idea. I had not thought of it. I cannot give you a considered response.

I will carry on with the answer I was giving you. I find it regrettable that certain aspects are no longer found in the new roadmap. Here is an example. The Canada School of Public Service had organized a pilot project during which 11 universities provided language training to people who wished to become public servants. These people could then enter the public service at the appropriate level. That pilot project has now ended and there is no follow-up; there is no more funding. I find that regrettable.

However, other aspects that were successful will continue. But as Mr. Giguère stated, it is often difficult to determine whether certain amounts have already been spent, that were already part of a departmental budget or which...

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

These $120 million appear in the roadmap, but were they really there before? Is this new funding? Nobody knows.