Evidence of meeting #38 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chapter.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Scott Vaughan  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Neil Maxwell  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Richard Flageole  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Hugh McRoberts  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Wendy Loschiuk  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'd like to call the meeting to order and extend to everyone a warm welcome.

Welcome, everyone.

This meeting is called pursuant to the Standing Orders to deal with all chapters of the Report of the Auditor General of Canada, which was tabled yesterday, November 3. The committee is very pleased to have before us today the Auditor General, Sheila Fraser. She is accompanied by Scott Vaughan, commissioner of the environment and sustainable development; Richard Flageole, assistant auditor general; and Wendy Loschiuk, also the assistant auditor general.

Welcome to all the witnesses.

I'm going to turn it over to you, Ms. Fraser, for your opening remarks.

3:35 p.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are very pleased to present our 2009 fall report, which was tabled yesterday in the House of Commons.

As you mentioned, I'm accompanied by Scott Vaughan, the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development, and Wendy Loschiuk and Richard Flageole, assistant auditors general.

The issues covered in this report are typical of the challenges facing government today. Our findings underscore the importance of thinking through the implementation challenges when policies and programs are developed or changed. Having a complete picture of what needs to be done and by whom, of how other programs will be affected and what risks are involved, can make the difference between a program that delivers results for Canadians and one that does not.

Program evaluations can be a valuable source of information for decisions to change, improve, or replace programs. The departments we audited said they are concerned about whether they can meet expanded requirements under the 2009 policy. In the departments we examined, evaluations covered only a relatively low proportion of total program spending. In addition, inadequate data limited the assessment of program effectiveness. Despite four decades of efforts, evaluations are still not providing enough reliable evidence about whether program objectives are being met.

Chapter 2 of our report looks at how foreign workers are selected for admission into Canada. Citizenship and Immigration Canada has to design and deliver foreign worker programs that meet the needs of the labour market.

We found that the department has made a number of key decisions in recent years without properly assessing their costs and benefits, potential risks, and likely impact on other programs. Some of these decisions have caused a significant shift in the types of foreign workers being admitted permanently to Canada. There is little evidence that this shift is part of any well-defined strategy to best meet the needs of the Canadian labour market.

We also found that when work permits are issued for temporary foreign workers, there is no systematic review to ensure that job offers are genuine and that employers have complied with previous permit terms and conditions such as wages and accommodations. The problems we noted could leave temporary foreign workers in a vulnerable position and pose significant risks to the integrity of the immigration program as a whole. Citizenship and Immigration Canada needs to develop a clear vision of what each program is expected to contribute to Canada's overall objectives for immigration.

Let us now turn to the chapter on tax legislation. The Income Tax Act is one of the longest and most complex pieces of federal legislation. Taxpayers have the right to expect clear guidance on how to interpret the act so they can determine how much income tax they owe. Problems arise when the wording of the act is unclear or does not adequately reflect government policy. There is now a backlog of more than four hundred technical amendments that are needed. It has been eight years since Parliament passed a technical bill to amend the Income Tax Act.

When there are delays before proposed technical changes become law, taxpayers do not know the exact form the change will take, when it will apply, and how it will affect the tax transactions they have already completed. The Department of Finance needs to do more to bring the urgency of the problem to the attention of the government and Parliament, and it ought to review the way it manages this process.

We also have a chapter on electronic health records. Canada Health Infoway Inc. was created in 2001 as a not-for-profit corporation to lead the development and implementation of electronic health records across Canada.

Infoway has accomplished a great deal in eight years. It identified the key requirements and components of electronic health record systems and developed a blueprint for their design. It also ensured that projects put forth by the provinces and territories were designed to comply with its blueprint and standards for compatibility.

Infoway has made a considerable effort to report on progress, but the meaning of some figures it reports is not clear. For instance, it reports that 17% of Canadians live in provinces or territories where a complete electronic health record system is available. However, having a system available does not necessarily mean that health care professionals are actually using it.

This is a highly complex initiative. Meeting the significant challenges that lie ahead will take the collaboration of Infoway, all provinces and territories, and other stakeholders.

My report today also looks at how National Defence purchased vehicles that were urgently needed to protect Canadian Forces in Afghanistan. National Defence and Public Works and Government Services Canada worked together to fast-track the purchase of these vehicles. In three of the four projects we looked at, National Defence has determined that the vehicles have met operational needs. The fourth project is nearly two years behind schedule and is projected to cost at least double the amount originally approved by the government. National Defence needs to develop a process geared to managing urgent acquisitions. It should also examine whether there are lessons from these projects that can be applied to its regular acquisitions.

We also examined how Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and Environment Canada have carried out the federal government's responsibilities for land management and environmental protection on reserve lands. There are few federal regulations that apply to environmental protection on reserves, and the federal government has taken little action to change this. As a result, people living on reserves have significantly less protection from environmental threats than other communities.

We found that most landfills on reserves operate without permits, monitoring, or enforcement by Indian and Northern Affairs, as do sewage treatment and disposal. We also found that despite the department's commitment to transfer more control to first nations over the management of their lands and resources, access to land management programs and training is limited.

A healthy environment and control over the management of lands and resources are critical to sustainable economic development. Without them, opportunities for first nations to improve their quality of life and approach the standard of health and well-being enjoyed in other communities are severely restricted.

Turning to emergency management, the government must be ready to respond quickly and effectively when emergencies arise. Canada needs to have a planned and coordinated approach in place so that federal, provincial, and municipal agencies know what part they will play in managing a crisis.

Public Safety Canada was created to coordinate the federal government's response to large-scale emergencies. It has developed an interim federal emergency response plan to coordinate activities in an emergency. But we found that the plan has not been formally endorsed by government. Until it is adopted, it will be difficult for Public Safety Canada to fulfill its assigned role.

Until it is clearly established how Public Safety Canada will work with other departments, it will be difficult for it to truly coordinate the federal response to emergency situations.

The last chapter of the report examines how the Canadian International Development Agency is implementing its commitments to key principles of aid effectiveness.

Donor partners and recipient countries told us that CIDA staff in the field are highly regarded and their efforts are appreciated. However, the complex and lengthy processes required to obtain approval for project funding have long been criticized within and outside the agency. We also found that the agency has failed to concentrate on fewer priorities, despite a commitment to narrow its focus.

Donor partners, recipient governments, and program staff are unclear about the agency's direction and long-term commitment. The nature of international development calls for stable, long-term programming, and CIDA needs a comprehensive plan for going forward.

Mr. Chair, I would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have, but I would first propose that the commissioner present his findings to the committee.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

Mr. Vaughan.

3:40 p.m.

Scott Vaughan Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Sheila.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My report examines a number of areas critical to effective environmental management, starting with the importance of solid information.

Informed decision-making is at the heart of sound policy-making. The federal government needs science-based environmental information that is timely, robust, and accessible in ways that both identify patterns of environmental degradation and help programs concentrate on the most urgent environmental problems. Until data programs are woven together to track major changes over time in the quality of Canada’s environment, we are left with piecemeal approaches to protecting the environment.

The importance of good information is clear in our chapter on applying the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act. More than 100 federal organizations are required to apply the act to projects that could impact the environment. Assessing the possible effects of projects early in a planning phase is a cornerstone of good environmental management. Identifying potential impacts such as pollution or habitat destruction before they occur allows for corrective action to avoid or reduce environmental problems.

In half the files we examined, the rationale or analysis was too weak to demonstrate if environmental effects of projects had been considered appropriately and whether actions were taken to mitigate them.

The Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, which administers the act, has not established a quality assurance program for assessments, although the act requires it to do so. Roughly 80,000 environmental assessments have been initiated since 1995. Yet, because it lacks a quality assurance program, the agency does not know how good the assessments have been and whether they have contributed to environmental protection.

Another chapter looks at the risk that certain toxic substances pose to the environment and human health. We note a number of significant control and monitoring systems to reduce toxic emission and to check levels of exposure among Canadians. We also note the need for improvements in how risks are managed. Lead and mercury, for example, continue to present risks. New research indicates that exposures to lead at levels currently considered safe may be in fact too high, underscoring a need for an overall risk management strategy.

It is critical that the government take stock of how well its actions are working and also consider new research and the results of monitoring in order to protect human health and the environment from the risks of toxic substances.

Current product labelling does not fully disclose the chronic risks posed by toxic substances in some common household products. As a result, Canadians are not fully informed about these risks and may not be taking appropriate precautions to protect themselves.

The third chapter of my report looks at the National Pollutant Release Inventory, or NPRI. Created in 1992, the NPRI provides Canadians with information about key pollutants in their communities. The NPRI is important because it helps to track releases and transfers of substances that can have a negative effect on the environment and on the health of Canadians.

Environment Canada does not provide inventory users with enough information to help them understand what data can be used for and where caution should be applied. Environment Canada has taken measures to improve NPRI data quality. However, these actions must be guided by an overall strategy and plan to improve data accuracy so that pollution tracking and environmental monitoring can rely on the best possible information.

Finally, Mr. Chair, the fourth chapter is my annual report on environmental petitions. We received 28 petitions this year. The issues most commonly raised include health, biodiversity, fish habitat, and environmental assessments.

Mr. Chair, we would be happy to answer your questions.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Vaughn, and thank you to both you and Ms. Fraser for the report and the work that your department does.

I'm going to interrupt normal proceedings right here now to deal with a motion, just to clear the record here before I forget. The steering committee had a very brief meeting before this meeting and we have selected four chapters for study by this committee.

I'm just going to read the motion:

That the Committee hold hearings on the following chapters from the fall 2009 Report of the Auditor General of Canada: Emergency Management, Public Safety Canada, Chapter 7, Chapter 8, Strengthening Aid Effectiveness, Canadian International Development Agency, Chapter 1, Evaluate the Effectiveness of Programs and Chapter 5, Acquiring Military Vehicles for use in Afghanistan.

We may be doing other chapters, and of course the steering committee and this committee can revisit that after the break, but that is the motion so moved by Mr. Christopherson.

(Motion agreed to)

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

We're going to the first round, seven minutes each.

Ms. Crombie, you have seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Madam Fraser, Mr. Vaughn, thank you very much for attending today.

Madam Fraser, I want to thank you for your very thorough analysis. I paid particular attention to your matters of special importance and it was very concerning when you said:

Despite good intentions, there are examples of policies adopted, programs launched or changed, and commitments made without a full analysis of the risks involved, the resources needed, the potential impact on other players, and the steps required to achieve the desired results. We also see examples where there is no long-term vision or strategy to guide a department’s overall programming, and others where there is no ongoing evaluation of program effectiveness. The result can be a fragmented approach to programming in response to a problem of the day, creating other problems that were not anticipated.

These were all very concerning indeed.

I'm going to limit my questions to two chapters right now, starting with chapter 7 on emergency preparedness and public safety, and then I'm going to move on to selecting foreign workers if I have time. I hope to.

To get right into it, because time is limited, your report is very damning, so I'd like to know, in your opinion, did the federal government have a plan to cope with a national emergency such as this H1N1 pandemic?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

As we note in the report, there is a draft federal emergency response plan that would deal with national emergencies. That plan has not been formally approved by government. We believe it is important that it be approved--

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

On a point of order.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

We have a point of order, Ms. Fraser.

On a point of order, Mr. Weston.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Maybe I'm confused, but I don't think that the H1N1 investigation is part of our emergency preparedness plan. It's part of a pandemic plan, which is a separate thing entirely.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

That's not a point of order.

We'll let the Auditor General answer that.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

If it's part of the Auditor General's review but it's not part of the--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Weston, we will let the Auditor General continue. If it's not, she will tell the committee that and you can have your seven minutes and you can ask similar questions.

Please go ahead, Ms. Fraser.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Mr. Chair, I think it's a partisan role that you are taking, and I would challenge the chair.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Go ahead, Ms. Fraser.

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

As I mentioned, the federal emergency response plan has not been approved. We believe it is important that it be approved so the roles and responsibility of Public Safety Canada would be clear to provide leadership and coordination. As for the H1N1 situation, we did not look at that, because obviously much of the events of the past few weeks have occurred after our audit was complete, but it is my understanding that it has not been declared a national emergency and the federal emergency response plan would not apply to this situation. It is being managed by the Public Health Agency and Health Canada under their pandemic plan.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Thank you, Madam Fraser.

Why hasn't an effective federal plan been approved?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

I have no idea. You would have to ask the department.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

In your opinion, has the government exercised the leadership necessary to coordinate emergency activities, as you say in your report, or provided governments with sufficient guidance on what is needed in the event of emergencies?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

In the audit, we mentioned that we looked at assessments that had been done for six emergencies over the past three years. The government itself concluded that the coordination was not as effective or efficient as it should have been. We believe part of the solution to that is the approval of the federal emergency response plan so that Public Safety Canada has the authority to exercise the role it has been given under legislation.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Who is ultimately responsible, and what is the role of the minister here?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Under our system the minister would be ultimately responsible for the operations and activities of his department.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

You've said there has been a lack of leadership and guidance in coordinating an emergency response because this national plan has not been approved. Could this explain why in certain emergency situations like the national H1N1 pandemic, which could become a national emergency, reaction has been so slow, chaotic, and confusing, resulting in the lack of delivery of vaccines, and shortages?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

I really can't respond to the H1N1 situation. We have not looked at this. The whole vaccination program is a provincial responsibility over which we would not be able to do any work anyway.