Public Safety Committee on April 21st, 2009

[Clifford Yumansky]

Inspector Nezan quoted a compliance rate of about 94%, if I'm not mistaken.

[Insp Pierre Nezan]

I can say it's 94%, but I have to throw in a caveat here, because Ms. Lines told you the statistic as of 8:15 this morning in Ontario. The national sex offender registry doesn't allow us to do that.

Last week I asked my staff to find out from the national registry the compliance rate in Canada. It came up with 85%, but that's not a true picture. We have to go to each province and territory and ask how many are truly non-compliant: the ones who aren't incarcerated, out of the country, deported, deceased, or in long-term hospitalization. Who is truly playing with the system here and is not compliant?

We come back with 94%, but that was the figure I had to cobble together from the provinces and territories, so it's not a very accurate picture. It's pretty close, but it's not up to date. It's not a snapshot in time, because I may have had B.C.'s results from three days ago and Saskatchewan's from today. It's a moving target, but it's roughly 94%.

[C/Supt Kate Lines]

That's one of the abilities of Ontario's model, that capacity to monitor what we would describe as inactive offenders, for a variety of reasons, and to ensure, again, that they're not considered non-compliant because, as the inspector says, they could be non-compliant in principle with the registry but currently incarcerated or that type of thing. It's important to consider this when you're measuring compliance, which some might say is also a monitor of success.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

You mentioned “inactive”. I've heard a couple of examples, “deceased” being one that you mentioned earlier, and “currently incarcerated” is another. What other reasons would cause an offender to be currently inactive in terms of needing to comply with the registry, especially in terms of those things we need to allow for so the registry can be updated in a better manner, as the Ontario one is?

[Supt David Truax]

One of the most common examples we have is that of a registered sex offender relocating elsewhere in Canada outside of Ontario. Obviously, some of these people have a transient nature as well. If they relocate to another province or territory in Canada, they need to make notification to the Ontario sex offender registry no less than 15 days in advance of ceasing to be a resident of Ontario. They need to provide specific information, such as the city, etc., about where they will be relocating so that we will be able to communicate with the national sex offender registry to ensure the process is followed in that other province or territory. Relocating is the most common example.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

In order to educate myself on this same point, what are the penalties in the federal registry for failing to comply with updating the information? What are the penalties an offender faces for that?

[Mary Campbell]

The first offence is a summary conviction matter. In a moment, someone will turn to the reference of what the potential monetary and incarceral penalty is. On a second or subsequent offence, it's a hybrid. It could be prosecuted either summarily or on indictment and the maximum penalties are higher for those subsequent offences.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Inspector Nezan, I've already referenced your comments in terms of the life-altering effect that some sexual crimes will have on the victims, particularly when we talk about children. In fact, sometimes it can be a life sentence for a young individual who has been sexually assaulted or molested.

Could you share with me some of the impacts these kinds of crimes have on victims? There was some mention about the differences in offences in terms of minor offences or whatnot. Really, I would say that on this kind of crime a victim probably would be quite offended to hear it being called a minor offence. We know that these so-called minor offences often graduate to worse types of crimes, and certainly in terms of prevention we need to know all the different ranges of crimes.

I want to get some quick comments on those points.

[Insp Pierre Nezan]

On your first question in terms of impact, mental health professionals will tell you that people in general have positive illusions or outlooks on life. When you see a violent crime happen to someone, you have a tendency to rationalize and say, “It can't happen to me because I don't engage in high-risk behaviour.”

People who are victimized sometimes have what they call “shattered illusions”. The impact on their trust in people and the emotional impact are far-reaching. I'm speaking from a policeman's point of view, so I'm no expert in this--it's above my pay grid--but I've seen it many times. Most of my service has been in major crime investigations in the major crime world. So anecdotally, from experience, I can say that it impacts some of them throughout their lives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Kania, please.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Officer O'Brien, I understand you made representations to Minister Stockwell Day when he was the public safety minister. Is that accurate?

[Supt Leo O'Brien]

It was Inspector Nezan, actually, who did the presentation. Prior to that, it was Deputy Commissioner Martin, our deputy commissioner at the time.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

This is for all the panellists. Did any of you make representations to Minister Day in terms of what you wanted to fix and the changes you wanted to see before Bill S-3 was actually passed?

[Mary Campbell]

As a public servant, I'm not able to reveal advice that I provide to any minister on an ongoing basis, but it's fair comment to say that this is a very serious matter, and, of course, ministers take it very seriously and advice is provided.

If you look at the sequence of amendments to the bill, you will see that Bill S-3 was an endeavour to get the military incorporated and to make a number of other what we might call “technical amendments”, but also some of the amendments along the lines of what we've been talking about today.

There was quite a time gap between Parliament passing that bill and it being proclaimed in force, partly because there were some important regulations on the military side that had to be created. During that time, no one was inactive. Discussions continued at the federal-provincial level, and certainly at the federal level. These issues have been discussed and analyzed and advice provided.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Would any of you disagree with the following statement, which is that prior to the passage of Bill S-3, on March 29, 2007, the Conservatives were aware of all of the problems that you've gone through today and they left them unanswered?

[Mary Campbell]

This has been an evolutionary process. I think all witnesses have indicated that it's something so highly operational that it's only through the passage of time and experience that some issues come forward. As a public servant, I can tell you that our job is to look at the implementation, monitor the implementation, and provide advice as issues come up.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Let me ask the RCMP officers something. Prior to the passage of this recent bill, you were aware that vehicle licence plates could not be registered and that it was a problem, correct?

[Supt Leo O'Brien]

Yes, that's correct.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

And that was not fixed, right?

[Supt Leo O'Brien]

Right.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

You were aware that there was no mandatory registration and that a number of these criminals were not in the system and you couldn't do anything about them. That was not fixed, correct?

[Supt Leo O'Brien]

That's correct.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

You were aware that the orders expire after a period of time and then you will have no access to these people. That continues to be a problem, correct?

[Supt Leo O'Brien]

By the orders, do you mean the order at the time they're on the registry?

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Right.