Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elcock.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ward Elcock  Special Advisor, Privy Council Office
Superintendent Alphonse MacNeil  Division Operations Commander 2010 on the G8 and G20, Integrated Security Unit, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Marie-Lucie Morin  National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good afternoon, everyone. This is meeting number 35 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security on Monday, October 25, 2010.

I would remind everyone that today we are being televised, so please take your cellphone or BlackBerry and put it on mute mode or at least silence the ring tone so that it doesn't disrupt the meeting.

Today we're commencing a study on the issues surrounding security at the G-8 and G-20 summits. In our first hour we welcome the Honourable Vic Toews, Minister of Public Safety.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for taking the time out of your busy schedule to appear on this issue.

We also have as witnesses, from the Privy Council Office, Mr. Ward Elcock, the special advisor, and Marie-Lucie Morin, the national security advisor to the Prime Minister and associate secretary to the cabinet.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Chief Superintendent Alphonse MacNeil, division operation commander to the 2010 G-8 and G-20 integrated security unit.

I understand, Mr. Minister, you have an opening statement that you will share. You have appeared before the committee on many occasions. We thank you for that. You know the process as far as the questions go. We welcome your comments.

3:30 p.m.

Provencher Manitoba

Conservative

Vic Toews ConservativeMinister of Public Safety

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to congratulate you on taking the chair of this committee; it certainly indicates the faith that committee members have in your qualifications and abilities. I don't believe I've had the opportunity to appear in front of you as chair of this committee.

In any event, it's a pleasure to appear before the committee to discuss security costs for the G-8 and G-20 summits.

As you indicated, I am joined here today by very qualified individuals, who will be able to provide the committee with the details for many of the questions they may ask. They are senior officials who were involved with the preparation and provision of the G-8 and G-20 security, and I'm confident they'll be able to answer any questions you might have on the operational details of these summits, including the specific costs.

The Public Safety portfolio had a number of partners that were involved in the security for the G-8 and G-20 summits. Altogether, the Public Safety portfolio received $790.1 million, which is approximately 85% of the security budget of $930 million.

Funding to the agencies was as follows: $507.5 million for the RCMP to conduct planning and operations related to policing and security at the two summits; $278.3 million for Public Safety to administer the security cost framework policy and reimburse security partners for the incremental and extraordinary security-related costs they incurred; $3.1 million for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service to provide intelligence support related to threats to the national security of Canada, including the G-8 and G-20 summits; $1.2 million for the Canada Border Services Agency to support activities associated with the provision of incremental border services and critical program support for the G-8 and G-20 summits.

These important investments were necessary given the scope and magnitude of security operations associated with hosting two major summits back to back, which was unprecedented. I believe all of us can be proud of what we accomplished at the summits themselves.

A wide range of global challenges was addressed at the G-8 summit, including international peace and security, environmental sustainability and green recovery, as well as the global economic recovery. It also resulted in member nations agreeing to the Muskoka initiative, which will result in an increase in spending of $7.3 billion on maternal, newborn, and child health.

In Toronto, Canada hosted the first summit of the G-20 in its new capacity as the premier forum for international economic cooperation. Some of the many areas of advancement of this summit included taking steps to safeguard and strengthen the economic recovery; laying the foundation for strong, sustainable, and balanced growth globally; financial sector reform; as well as promoting trade and investment. This represents significant steps to support the implementation of a common vision at the international level through the alignment of economic actions and decisions by G-20 countries.

Member nations accomplished a great deal at both summits. I think it goes without saying that Canada can be proud of hosting such a massive undertaking when the eyes of the world were upon us.

In order for these summits to unfold in an orderly fashion, an enormous and complex logistic and security operation was required. While this cost was higher than any of us would have liked, it was necessary.

Leading the design and delivery of the security was the RCMP-led Integrated Security Unit. The security plan involved 10 federal government agencies and departments, including the RCMP, Public Safety Canada, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces, Health Canada, Transport Canada, the Canada Border Services Agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or CSIS, Industry Canada, as well as several provincial and municipal police forces.

In order to put the magnitude of the summits and the related security operation into perspective, I would like to share some numbers with the committee. An integrated security unit led by the RCMP was struck and established to coordinate the provision of security. Included in the ISU were representatives from the Ontario Provincial Police, the Toronto Police Service, Peel Regional Police, and the Department of National Defence. There were more than 20,000 police officers and military personnel deployed to the unified command centres as well as in and around the two summit sites to ensure security for the internationally protected persons and their delegations. It is important to note that there were more delegates at these summits than there were athletes at the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games in Vancouver.

Such a large security operation comes at a cost. Not only are large numbers of personnel required, but they must also have accommodations and the equipment necessary to perform their duties as well as manage logistics during the time of their deployment. This was confirmed by the Auditor General, who noted the following:

Obviously $1 billion is a lot of money, but I think we have to recognize that security is expensive. There are a lot of people involved over a long period of time. We may think that the meetings only last for a few days, but all the preparations involve extensive planning, extensive coordination for months before, and I think we have to be really, really careful.

Security is an expensive but non-negotiable endeavour. The responsibility for hosting these events includes the provision of the appropriate level of security. Not only does Canada have a moral obligation to protect the participants in these summits, but we also have an international obligation to do so under a United Nations convention adopted in 1973 to protect internationally protected persons. Further to this, the Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act and the Criminal Code of Canada require that security be provided for internationally protected persons.

As a government, we also have a responsibility to be open and transparent about the cost, which is what we are doing. The government has been transparent about the total security budget from the onset. This observation has been confirmed by the Parliamentary Budget Officer in his assessment of the planned security costs for the G-8 and G-20 summits released in June. He indicated in his report that compared to other countries, Canada has been more transparent on the cost of security related to the summits. As you may be aware, the Auditor General is presently examining the security costs for the summits and is receiving full cooperation in the review. This, Mr. Chair, certainly has been my intent from the beginning. I've stated from the beginning that our books are open to the Auditor General for her review.

At this time, members of the Public Safety portfolio as well as security partners involved with the security for the summits are currently in the process of compiling and reconciling all security expenses incurred as a result of the summits. Due to the audit and financial control mechanisms and the security cost framework policy, the final security costs may not be known for a number of months. This is the case because the policy reimburses security partners for reasonable and justifiable incremental costs incurred. Once the security partners submit their final financial claims for reimbursement, an independent audit will be conducted to ensure that only eligible costs are reimbursed. All claims for reimbursement are to be submitted to Public Safety by December 1, 2010. Once these claims are received, the final audits will commence, with the intent to have the process completed by March 31 of next year.

Mr. Chair, I have committed to providing full disclosure of the G-8 and G-20 summits security costs in the past, and I am reaffirming this statement today. The government is accountable to the Canadian public and is committed to managing financial resources in a fiscally responsible manner. I can assure the committee that the government will respond to all questions posed on the security budget and costs, and it will deliver a full financial report on actual costs incurred once it is available.

Thank you. I would be happy to answer any questions you might have or else defer those questions to members of this panel who are more qualified to answer these specifics than I may be.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

We'll move to the first round of questions.

This is a seven-minute round, and we'll start with Mr. Holland.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister for appearing before committee today, and to the other witnesses.

Minister, you don't get to the most expensive weekend of meetings in history without a lot of bad management. I want to go through an anatomy of how things got so bad with you.

First, when the initial decision was made to try to shoehorn this into the riding of Tony Clement, a cabinet minister in your government, and you tried to shoehorn it in there and it wouldn't fit, the decision was then made to split it into two venues, even after Minister Clement talked about how much money would be saved by having it in one venue. It was dumped into Toronto at the last minute.

Then, instead of listening to most of the advice at the time to put it on the CNE grounds or in an area that was easy to secure and much less costly, it was put in downtown Toronto, in the financial district.

Minister, when you made the decision to shove the rest of this into downtown Toronto, on whose advice did you do it? Who did you talk to? Did you incorporate any of that advice into what you did, and if you did, can you be specific in terms of who you spoke to and what advice they were giving?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you, Mr. Holland.

I believe Mr. Elcock can answer that question in detail.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Well, Minister, if you're capable, I'd like to hear what advice you got.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

And I'm going to provide you with the advice right from the horse's mouth, Mr. Holland, so perhaps Mr. Elcock can speak.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Okay. If your answer is Mr. Elcock, was there anybody else other than Mr. Elcock who--

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

I'd like Mr. Elcock to have an opportunity to answer the baseless charges that you've made.

Mr. Elcock.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Mr. Elcock.

3:40 p.m.

Ward Elcock Special Advisor, Privy Council Office

Mr. Chairman, the decision was made to not hold both meetings in Deerhurst simply because, at the end of day, Deerhurst was too small to host a G-8 meeting. Given the size of the meeting, it was beyond the capacity of the venue.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

If I may, Mr. Chair, I'll come back to Mr. Elcock. We have the minister for only an hour. We're going to have the officials for the second hour. If the minister doesn't want to answer a question in the time he has allotted to him, we can come back to the officials in the second hour.

Minister, when you made the decision to put this in downtown Toronto--

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Well, that's not--

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

--you specifically--

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Wait.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Chair, I'm just asking--

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

I want to appeal to you, Mr. Chair, that the question that has been put will be answered by the individual who's most competent to answer it, in the sense that this individual has all of the facts.

I'm not going to get into a discussion with Mr. Holland, who simply wants to fight and make baseless accusations. He obviously doesn't want to hear the truth in this matter. This is typical of Mr. Holland's approach.

I would suggest that if Mr. Holland is truly interested in hearing from the experts on why the decision was made, Mr. Elcock is here.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I would remind all members that we have had the opening statement from our minister and that he has brought the top advisors—whether national security, RCMP, or special advisors—specifically to answer questions. At every meeting I've been at with ministers, they have the ability to put the question to the individual who can best answer it.

Continue, Mr. Holland.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Chair, hopefully you paused the time there.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We did, yes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Look, Minister, you're here for an hour, and it's my intent to get at the rationale behind your decision-making. Of course, the rest of the witnesses will be here for an additional hour, and it's our intention to certainly pose questions to them. If there's a question that you feel you don't have an answer to and you want to put it to your officials, then let's just move on and we'll ask that question later.

Let me just ask this to you directly in terms of a personal opinion. Do you not feel that all of this was entirely predictable, that by shoving it in downtown Toronto in the financial district--not listening to the City of Toronto, not listening to police--it was entirely predictable that a lot of the chaos and confusion and problems that flowed out of that decision would come?

I'm asking this of you personally. When you think about it now, in retrospect, was it not a bad decision to put this in downtown Toronto, in the financial district?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Perhaps I can have Mr. Elcock answer as to why those were the recommendations that were made with the government and why the government in fact agreed with Mr. Elcock's assessment of the situation.

Perhaps Mr. Elcock can--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

I'll come back to Mr. Elcock in the second hour on that question.

Minister, let me go to the issue of cost. You said in the House that “we...wait for the bills to come in before we determine what the costs are”.

It's now been four months--four months--and we don't know the details of all this spending. We know about $200 million; we had to pry it out with an order paper question. We know about glow sticks and in-suite snacks and millions and millions of dollars on a wide array of things that seemed dubious, including lake creation and lake elimination. But what we don't have now, even four months later, are those bills.

I'm sorry, I don't accept this rationale you're giving me--unless you're telling me that you hand out blank cheques. How could you not know what the bills are? I mean, if you're telling me that you wait for contractors to come and tell you what reasonable costs are four months after the fact, how long do you wait, Minister, before you get the details on how much this thing cost? Why is it now four months and we still don't have about $1 billion in specific details?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Holland, you may come from a background where you pay bills before the facts are presented to you; this government does not. This government waits until we receive the bills before we actually pay the bills and announce what the costs are.

We understand what the general budget is of the security--I've made those figures available--but we don't pay bills until the contractor has demonstrated that he has provided the services and the details justifying the bill.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Yes, but Minister—