Evidence of meeting #43 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William Elliott  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Commissioner Tim Killam  Deputy Commissioner, Policing Support Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Commissioner Al Nause  Deputy Commissioner, Chief Human Resources Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good afternoon, colleagues.

Welcome. This is meeting number 43 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security on Monday, November 29, 2010.

In our first hour today we will have a briefing on the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and in our second hour our intentions are to move to committee business.

As our witness this afternoon, we are pleased to have Mr. William Elliott, Commissioner of the RCMP. Accompanying him today, all of the RCMP, are: Rod Knecht, senior deputy commissioner; Alain Séguin, chief financial and administrative officer; Tim Killam, deputy commissioner, policing support services; and, Al Nause, deputy commissioner, chief human resources officer.

I understand that Commissioner Elliott has an opening statement to deliver. Then we'll move into the first rounds of questioning.

Is this your first appearance before the committee, Commissioner, at least since I've taken on the chairmanship here?

3:30 p.m.

Commissioner William Elliott Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

It is my first appearance, Mr. Chairman, with you in the chair. I have had the pleasure of appearing before the public safety committee in the past.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Welcome. We look forward to your comments. The floor is yours, sir.

3:30 p.m.

Commr William Elliott

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I welcome the opportunity to appear before you today with a number of my senior executive colleagues.

I am sure the committee members are interested in hearing about some of the progress we have made in bringing about positive change in the RCMP. I believe that another reason the committee has invited us today may be media reports some months ago of complaints about me.

As you know, following those reports, Reid Morden was asked to conduct a workplace assessment. I understand that Mr. Morden found that at the time there was an unhealthy level of tension and internal conflict in our senior management team. He indicated that my management style was seen by some as controversial, while others supported it. He concluded that on occasion I contributed to the tension. He recommended that we accelerate implementation of transformation initiatives.

The senior executive committee was already actively engaged in our transformation efforts. We recognized at the time that it was important for us to work even more closely together to foster a cohesive senior management team and to drive forward even harder to bring about positive changes. This we have done. We are united in our commitment to work towards these objectives.

I am pleased to report that we are having a great deal of success. We are building on significant changes that have already been made, as outlined in our recent report entitled, “Progress--Transformation of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police”.

Mr. Chairman, I believe the clerk has been provided with copies for each of the members of the committee.

The report highlights some of the many improvements and best practices that our employees across Canada have implemented. It also demonstrates our ongoing commitment to our vision for change for the RCMP to be “an adaptive, accountable, trusted organization of fully engaged employees demonstrating outstanding leadership, and providing world-class police services”. Let me give you a few examples.

When I became commissioner, the RCMP was consistently failing to meet its recruiting targets. Thanks to the development and implementation of proactive, targeted, and streamlined recruiting, we are now meeting and in fact exceeding our targets, allowing us to fill vacancies and build a stronger and increasingly diverse workforce that better represents the communities we serve.

We have taken steps to reduce the burden of bureaucracy by cutting through red tape and making better use of technology, freeing up our staff, including front line police officers, to spend their time more productively and increase their daily contact with people in the communities we serve.

Our policies and training, as well as our reporting and accountability requirements, have been strengthened, notably including in relation to the use of force. Our new learning strategy better supports the continuous learning that is necessary for a policing organization to keep pace in a rapidly changing environment. This will help us develop and maintain a competent and professional workforce.

We recently created the Office of Professional Integrity to promote ethical decision-making throughout the organization. The professional integrity officer, Joseph Hincke, was formerly a major-general in the Canadian Forces. His office oversees a broad range of activities, including values and ethics, discipline, and employee recognition.

He also supports the RCMP's “External Investigation or Review Policy”, adopted earlier this year. The policy responds to legitimate public concerns about how RCMP employees are investigated following a serious incident such as an in-custody death. We understand that when such incidents occur, the public rightly expects that the actions of our employees will be subject to independent, professional, and thorough investigations. The policy requires us, wherever possible, to refer such investigations to independent agencies where they exist--for example, ASIRT in Alberta--or to other police forces.

Our policy is consistent with our overall objective of ensuring robust and credible independent oversight and review of the RCMP.

In addition, we are clearly on the public record as calling on governments to establish such independent investigative agencies, and I am encouraged by the recent indications by the Provinces of British Columbia and Nova Scotia that they are moving forward in this important area.

Mr. Chairman, those are just a few examples from the report, which is available online. As I said, we have provided copies to the clerk.

I would also like to speak briefly about a number of recent significant changes to the senior leadership of the RCMP, along with the realignment of our organizational structure. After consultations with contract partners and others, we have created two new deputy commissioner positions, deputy commissioner east and deputy commissioner west, while eliminating the former regional deputy commissioner positions for the Pacific, northwest, central, and Atlantic regions.

The important responsibilities of serving as the commanding officer for a division have been separated from the responsibilities of regional deputy. This allows each of our commanding officers across the country to focus on activities and issues within their division and to be supported by a deputy commissioner whose full-time responsibilities are to support them and to contribute to the overall leadership of the force as a member of the senior executive committee.

The deputy commissioners east and west have been asked to help strengthen links with headquarters and between regions and divisions and to champion and manage national and regional priorities. The deputies east and west will also play an important role in coaching and mentoring commanding officers and others. They will facilitate and support regional councils of commanding officers to address common issues across divisions; for example, in the Atlantic provinces or in the three northern territories. It is also anticipated that the deputies will play a key role in the management of our police services contracts and in our ongoing transformation activities.

It is also anticipated that the deputies will play a key role in the management of our police services contracts and in our ongoing transformation activities.

There have also been a number of changes of commanding officers and of individuals occupying other senior positions. I think our choice of uniquely qualified candidates is noteworthy and bodes well for the force as we move forward with our change agenda.

For example, Chief Superintendent—soon to be Assistant Commissioner—Russ Mirasty has been named the commanding officer of what we call F division: the Province of Saskatchewan. Russ has held a wide range of positions in six divisions, and since 2009 has been serving as the director general of national aboriginal policing at national headquarters here in Ottawa. He is a member of the Lac La Ronge Indian Band in northern Saskatchewan, the largest first nation in the province. He maintains a strong relationship with his home community and is fluent in the Cree language.

We also recently announced that Deputy Chief Norm Lipinski of the Edmonton Police Service will join the RCMP as an assistant commissioner and will serve as the Lower Mainland district commander in British Columbia, or E division. While serving with the Edmonton police, Deputy Chief Lipinski oversaw two significant organizational reviews. The pursuit review committee developed new policies in training, and the professionalism committee helped implement ongoing ethics training and the formation of the Edmonton police ethics committee. We feel very fortunate that Norm has joined our senior management team, which is focused on positioning the RCMP to meet the significant challenges ahead, while providing Canadians with the most effective and most efficient police services possible.

As I said earlier, we have made considerable progress. I personally believe, however, that if we are to truly transform the RCMP and ensure that it becomes and remains a world-class—indeed, a world-leading—police service, we need to take bold steps.

My senior executive colleagues and I believe that our objectives can best be achieved by enhancing the management and governance framework of the RCMP, investing the RCMP with the responsibility, authority, and flexibility to better manage our financial and human resources, and by our becoming a separate employer supported by a board of management.

The changes we are pursuing are neither simple nor easy, nor would they be a magic solution or a silver bullet. I believe, however, that significant governance and management changes can be both a catalyst and an enabler of transformational change. I also recognize that the changes my senior executive committee and I are working to advance will require the support and agreement of many others. Indeed, decisions about RCMP governance are not ours alone; they are the responsibility of governments.

Whatever decisions are taken, I have absolute faith that the professionalism, integrity, dedication, and passion of the employees of the RCMP will continue to drive the changes necessary to ensure that the RCMP remains one of the most progressive, effective, and dynamic police forces in the world.

Thank you again, Mr. Chairman, for inviting us to be here today. My colleagues and I would be happy to respond to questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Commissioner. We'll move into the first round of questioning.

Ms. Mendes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Merci, monsieur le président.

Thanks to all of you for coming in today to share with us your experience of change at the RCMP.

Commissioner Elliott, as you mentioned in your opening statement, you are aware that you have been accused of creating a certain atmosphere in the RCMP, where speaking truth to power is not the accepted norm. Do you believe there's a problem in speaking truth to power at the RCMP?

3:40 p.m.

Commr William Elliott

I think it's a challenge to get people in a hierarchical organization to, as you say, speak truth to power, but I think we have made very considerable progress, not just over the last few months but over the last few years, in encouraging people to speak up. As I often say, I believe that everyone has an opportunity—in fact, an obligation—to speak, to raise issues, and to have those issues resolved.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

If you are taking steps to remedy the situation, how do you suggest that those steps be verified, or by whom? Should we have you back here in six months to give an update or to see whether the situation has in fact been remedied?

3:40 p.m.

Commr William Elliott

I'd be happy to come back, Mr. Chairman, whenever the committee would think that useful.

I mentioned in the closing part of my remarks that a board of management is something that we see as helpful, and certainly I think such a board could have a role to play. I guess there are other means. Both our internal and our external communications, I think, can be looked at as an indication of the kind of environment we are trying to create and build on. A number of external mechanisms are currently in place to review our actions, including the current Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you very much.

Are you aware, Mr. Elliott, that we had invited former Assistant Commissioner Mike McDonell and Deputy Commissioner Raf Souccar to attend this meeting specifically?

3:40 p.m.

Commr William Elliott

I am aware that an invitation went to Mr. McDonell, who is now a member of the Ontario Provincial Police, and I am aware that it was suggested that Mr. Souccar attend, but as of November 18, I proposed to the clerk that I attend with members of my senior executive committee.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Do you agree that they were chief critics of your management style and behaviour, which they called abusive and insulting? In fact, Deputy Commissioner Souccar, with Deputy Commissioner Killam here, were two of the officers who filed the original complaint.

I imagine that since former Assistant Commissioner McDonell left the force for the OPP, he would have a conflicting engagement. But Deputy Commissioner Souccar is still employed by the RCMP, and if you yourself can find time to come to committee, wouldn't it be appropriate that we ask Mr. Souccar to be here too?

3:45 p.m.

Commr William Elliott

First of all, with respect to a number of the elements of the question, I am aware of the media reports with respect to complaints, and I am aware of some information in relation to complaints that were made against me in July. I must tell you that Mr. McDonell never spoke to me about any complaint at any point in my tenure as commissioner of the RCMP. Mr. Souccar and I have had many conversations, both before and after the media reports in July. I would venture to say that, to my knowledge, a number of the things reported in the media are factually incorrect.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Do you mean the complaint is factually incorrect? Was it filed or not filed?

I think Deputy Commissioner Killam could tell us that.

Was the complaint filed?

3:45 p.m.

Commr William Elliott

I'm happy to have Mr. Killam comment. I will turn things over to him in a moment. But I don't think it's as simple as whether a complaint was filed or a complaint was not filed. Clearly a number of individuals spoke to the Deputy Minister of Public Safety.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Killam.

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner Tim Killam Deputy Commissioner, Policing Support Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Yes, Mr. Chair. I was not one of those persons, contrary to what the media said, who filed an initial complaint and went to the Deputy Minister of Public Safety. I have nothing else to say about that, other than the fact that I was on vacation and came back to find out that there had been some complaints.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

And that there was this complaint filed...?

3:45 p.m.

D/Commr Tim Killam

That's correct.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you.

Is it possible to know where Deputy Commissioner Souccar is currently located at your RCMP headquarters?

3:45 p.m.

Commr William Elliott

Mr. Souccar is currently on annual leave.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Sorry?

3:45 p.m.

Commr William Elliott

He's on annual leave.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you very much.

I have a few minutes left...?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have almost a minute.