Evidence of meeting #14 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was firearm.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Étienne Blais  Associate Professor, School of Criminology, University of Montreal, As an Individual
Gary Mauser  Professor Emeritus, Institute for Canadian Urban Research Studies, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Greg Illerbrun  Firearms Chairman, Past-President, Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation
Nathalie Provost  Students and Graduates of Polytechnique for Gun Control
Heidi Rathjen  Spokesperson, Students and Graduates of Polytechnique for Gun Control
Caillin Langmann  Emergency Medicine Resident, Fellowship Program of the Royal College of Physicians Canada, Division of Emergency Medicine, McMaster University, As an Individual
Duane Rutledge  Sergeant, K-9 Unit, New Glasgow Police Service, As an Individual
Bruno Marchand  Director General, Association québécoise de prévention du suicide
Eve-Marie Lacasse  Main Coordinator, Fédération des femmes du Québec
Manon Monastesse  Managing Director, Fédération de ressources d'hébergement pour femmes violentées et en difficulté du Québec, Fédération des femmes du Québec

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Thank you very much.

Professor Mauser, in your research about suicide rates, there was a specific difference between your research and that of Professor Blais. Can you talk about how that would have come up?

11:35 a.m.

Professor Emeritus, Institute for Canadian Urban Research Studies, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

Dr. Gary Mauser

My research presented today is merely on the long-gun registry and homicide. I did not look at suicide. If you look at suicide, you can see that suicide rates have been declining for a long time, and that while the use of firearms in suicide--by long gun or handgun--has declined and started declining way before Bill C-68 was introduced or implemented, hanging has increased.

The problem with suicide isn't access to a particular kind of method, but access to any method. Ropes are eminently available to people who wish to hang themselves and, unfortunately, our aboriginal population has a cultural predilection for ropes rather than guns. This is uncontrollable. This is very sad. We should focus on suicide prevention, not gun access or restriction.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Randall Garrison

Thank you very much, Mr. Mauser.

The time for the government side has expired.

We'll turn to the opposition.

Mr. Harris would require either a substitution form or unanimous consent.

We have a substitution form.

Mr. Harris, you have seven minutes.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Chair.

First of all, I want to thank the witnesses for their presentations.

First, thanks to both of you from the Polytechnique for coming here. Knowing the excruciating circumstances which bring you here, I think it's very courageous to do this. You, Ms. Provost, being present for that, it must be a horrible memory that you have.

Ms. Rathjen, I want to give you a chance if you need a minute or two to finish anything else you might want to say.

As well, could you comment on the fact that if this bill goes through, the gun that was used at the Polytechnique, the Ruger Mini-14, is a part of this registry.... That particular gun is part of that registry and it will no longer be required to be registered. Any information on this type of gun or assault rifles will be destroyed, along with everything else.

With the changes in the act, there will be very little--if any--opportunity to trace guns and to follow up on when they are sold or who they go to. The RCMP has said that without the tracing and tracking it will be “almost unenforceable”. Could you comment on that and indicate what your concerns might be, if you have any?

11:40 a.m.

Spokesperson, Students and Graduates of Polytechnique for Gun Control

Heidi Rathjen

One of the problems in the last few years is that the government has not updated or reclassified certain weapons that should be classified as restricted or prohibited weapons. Our position is that we think all assault weapons--all weapons that have military characteristics--that are designed to kill people rapidly and effectively should be banned.

Unfortunately, among the seven million long guns that will be deregistered, that will become invisible to police, you have a number of these guns that should, according to the spirit of the law and the regulations, be classified as restricted. The police will lose track of them.

To continue with my previous point, the debate about this bill has been mostly about registration, because that was the stated objection communicated by the government for this bill. At the same time, the government professes its devotion and its faith in the issue of licensing, saying that it is what real gun control is. We disagree with that, but we support licensing.

By disconnecting the transfer of gun sales from the system, by saying that you don't need to have any records of sale and that at the same time you don't need to check the validity of a licence of a person you are selling guns to, you're removing the mechanism that allows the police to enforce licensing provisions.

The way the bill is written, it builds in a default assumption that the person you're selling to has a valid licence. It is only if a reason comes up to make you believe that is not true that you are then not allowed to sell it. But if you believe the person has a licence--and we don't know what that entails--then there is no violation even if the sale of the gun to an unlicensed person is illegal. It is a huge loophole that you could drive a freight train through and it completely undermines the licensing provisions.

We do not know why this is. What possible benefit could there be for the government to do this? It has professed in the past that verifying licences is essential to protect public safety.

We have no answer. All we know is that it's a step closer to what many gun lobby groups are now advocating, which is the elimination of the licensing provisions also.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

Professor Blais, you are a professor of criminology. Is that correct?

11:40 a.m.

Prof. Étienne Blais

Yes.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

You are a professor of criminology at the University of Montreal?

11:40 a.m.

Prof. Étienne Blais

Yes.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

You have a degree in criminology?

11:40 a.m.

Prof. Étienne Blais

I have a Ph.D. in criminology.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you. I just wanted to check that, because you say that these papers you have referred to are peer-reviewed as well.

11:45 a.m.

Prof. Étienne Blais

Yes.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

Professor Mauser, I understand from your website that you are a professor of business administration and that also, according to your website, you have written two books, one on political marketing, another on the manipulation of public opinion, and that you also represent the National Firearms Association.

I'm just wondering in what capacity you tell us that you appear here as an “individual criminologist”. What does that term actually mean?

11:45 a.m.

Professor Emeritus, Institute for Canadian Urban Research Studies, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

Dr. Gary Mauser

A number of your facts are incorrect. First of all—

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I'm just going by your website, sir.

11:45 a.m.

Professor Emeritus, Institute for Canadian Urban Research Studies, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

Dr. Gary Mauser

—I do not represent any organization. I am not a member of the National Firearms Association. I do not represent any firearms organization.

I am here as an individual criminologist because I am in two departments at Simon Fraser: the department of criminology, as well as the faculty of business. My training was in statistical methodology. I have published analytical statistical papers in criminology, marketing, business, and economics. So I feel perfectly qualified.

For the last 15 years I have published criminological journals, in peer-reviewed criminological journals, and this is what my university uses to evaluate my research. This is an academic competence. I am here as an academic criminologist.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Okay. Again, I'm just reading again from your website, which says:

I am Gary Mauser, Professor Emeritus, of Simon Fraser.... I represent the National Firearms Association.

That's on your website: garymauser.net.

I'm sorry if I have my facts wrong, but—

11:45 a.m.

Professor Emeritus, Institute for Canadian Urban Research Studies, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

Dr. Gary Mauser

Apology accepted.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

—that is the source.

I have a question for Mr. Illerbrun. I understand your position in that there are differing opinions on this, but you've described the changes that are being made in this legislation as a good “first step” towards replacing the firearms scheme. What would you see it as a step on the road to...? Do you share the view that Ms. Rathjen has talked about, which is that there should be a very different system?

We talk about law-abiding gun owners and by definition, of course, law-abiding people don't commit crimes of any kind. Most Canadians are law-abiding, and the laws are made, I guess, to keep people law-abiding and to provide respect for the law. If this is the first step, what other steps do you see happening and where do you see this going?

11:45 a.m.

Firearms Chairman, Past-President, Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation

Greg Illerbrun

I see people as law-abiding people and this act made criminals out of all of us. It uses the Criminal Code to punish legal, law-abiding firearms owners.

The steps I see are that we need to get this legislation taken out of the criminal act, quit punishing the legal people, and quit treating us as criminals. An act of Parliament is trampling the Constitution here. It has removed our right to remain silent. It's a reverse onus.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Randall Garrison

Thank you very much, Mr. Illerbrun.

The time has expired in this round.

We'll return to the government side.

Ms. Hoeppner.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will be sharing my time with Mr. Breitkreuz.

I have just a very brief question for Mr. Mauser. It might take him a couple of minutes to answer it.

We've been hearing from front-line police officers quite strongly that they're concerned that other police officers who would depend on the long-gun registry...or that if chiefs instruct their front-line officers to depend on the data in the long-gun registry, doing so puts their lives at very severe risk. We heard one police officer say that if even one officer's life were saved by abolishing the long-gun registry, it would be worth it.

Of course, we've heard the reverse said. I know you've been following this, Mr. Mauser. Have you ever known or heard of an incident, even recently, in which a police officer depended on the flawed information in the registry and it cost that individual officer their life?

11:45 a.m.

Professor Emeritus, Institute for Canadian Urban Research Studies, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

Dr. Gary Mauser

Yes, I have. It's very sad. I was told by an instructor at the Ontario Police College that he is frequently confronted by young aspiring police trainees who believe and place their trust in the long-gun registry. They believe what they see on the computer.

In one case, Constable Valérie Gignac, a constable in Laval, Quebec, checked the registry on December 14, 2005, before she confronted a trouble call. When she knocked on the door of this man's apartment, he shot and killed her through the door with an unregistered rifle, a rifle that the long-gun registry did not know was at this residence, a rifle that the man was prohibited from owning but that he nevertheless had. Obviously, trusting the long-gun registry can get people killed.

As I've shown in my statistics, there are exceptionally few cases of long guns being found in homicide cases. We have 4,800 homicides, with almost 1,500 firearms homicides in this time period, and 73 long guns registered. That's it. How can a long-gun registry have any impact on anything?

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you.

That does confirm as well what an officer told us, and he is a front-line officer. I'm not a front-line officer, but there are a couple on this side--and I don't know whether there are any on the opposition side—and I wouldn't scoff at what front-line officers are saying. They say that if you do look at the information in the registry, it's as though something changes in your cautionary radar. This individual police officer said it would be a detriment. He won't even look at it, because he has to go in with an alertness and a frame of mind.

Thank you very much for that. That certainly is a tragedy.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?