Evidence of meeting #28 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gps.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Larry Motiuk  Special Advisor, Infrastructure Renewal Team, Correctional Service of Canada
Barbara Jackman  Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual

4:25 p.m.

Special Advisor, Infrastructure Renewal Team, Correctional Service of Canada

Dr. Larry Motiuk

We're not seeing electronic monitoring, per se, as an intervention or a rehabilitation program. We're seeing it as a supervision tool. How do we equip our parole officers or community supervision practitioners to monitor compliance with conditions, geographic restrictions, curfews, or a person's whereabouts? If we're investing in the ability to monitor compliance with the conditions imposed on offenders in a better way than we could before, then we are expecting to enhance our ability to transform the organization into one in which community and staff safety are by-products as well.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

Did you have a question, Ms. Hoeppner?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

I have a comment and then a question.

In the testimony we've heard, we have certainly heard from people who have been pro electronic monitoring, but none of them have suggested that it's some magic bullet that will reduce recidivism or crime or help offenders be rehabilitated, unless it is coupled with good, strong programs. I think we've heard that overwhelmingly. Among those who have been critical of electronic monitoring, most of their emphasis has been on their belief that personal programming is vitally important when it comes to rehabilitation.

We have heard, even from those who have been critical, that electronic monitoring has been positive in the context you talked about, which is its use as a supervision tool to monitor individuals and actually see if they are compliant. If we step back and look at that testimony as a whole, it has actually been very consistent. I think what we're hearing over and over again is that this is not a magic bullet. It's not a one-size-fits-all solution. It's part of a package and part of something government can help with to do a better job in corrections.

This is my quick question, if I have one more moment. We heard that in Manitoba, electronic monitoring was used for young offenders who were involved in car thefts. I don't even know if it was an official pilot project. The challenge there was that they just ripped them off. They actually took off the monitors, and there appeared to be no consequence. I'm not sure if conditional release for young offenders is different than it is for adult offenders.

In the literature you looked at, was there any problem with adult offenders actually taking off their bracelets? Or did they not do it because of the consequence?

4:25 p.m.

Special Advisor, Infrastructure Renewal Team, Correctional Service of Canada

Dr. Larry Motiuk

All I would respond to in terms of offender management is that consequential learning is important, and if somebody chooses not to comply with an instruction—during the pilot they were called local instructions—to wear the bracelet, and they removed it, they would face the consequence of perhaps returning to custody. That's a very powerful tool in itself. Having meaningful consequences is important.

I'm not aware of the experience in Manitoba with the young offenders. I can imagine that if there were no consequences, it would be no small surprise that they would do so. If there is no consequence, they would continue to not comply.

We basically frame this around four basic risk management principles. The first one is good assessment analysis. Second is good communication. A really important risk management principle is monitoring of activities. Should something go awry, an intervention is required. It's the monitoring aspect we need to improve in our technology, across the board, within corrections.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Moore, did you have a quick question as a visitor to our committee?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Oh, no, I'm fine, Mr. Chair. Thank you. It's been interesting.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right. I think that pretty well takes up our time for today. We want to thank you for coming, and thanks to Correctional Services for being here pretty well every time we've requested them. Thank you very much.

We will suspend for one moment, and we'll get prepared for our next two guests, who will both be via teleconference. Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good afternoon. For our second hour today we are continuing our study of electronic monitoring. Our first witness in this hour, appearing by video conference from Toronto, is Ms. Barbara Jackman, an immigration refugee lawyer.

Are we coming in loud and clear for you there, Ms. Jackman?

March 6th, 2012 / 4:35 p.m.

Barbara Jackman Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual

Yes, you are, thank you. Can you hear me?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You're very clear.

Ms. Jackman is an active contributor to continuing legal education programs for the Canadian Bar Association, the Law Society of Upper Canada, and academic and community conferences. She is well known to Canadians as a spokesperson on topics including the practice of immigration and refugee law, racial profiling, the role and practices of the Federal Court and Supreme Court of Canada, issues related to migration and Canadian national security, and domestic and international human rights norms and practices.

Hopefully this afternoon, we will also be joined by Mr. Lorne Waldman. I'll introduce him now, although my understanding is that he's not there yet. He is a Canadian immigration and human rights lawyer. Mr. Waldman has appeared frequently in Canadian courts at all levels, and he has argued many leading cases in immigration and refugee law. Canadians will recognize him as a frequent commentator on immigration and refugee issues in the media. In August 2007, Mr. Waldman was awarded the Louis St. Laurent Award by the Canadian Bar Association for his contribution to the legal profession.

Our committee looks forward to his testimony and also to Ms. Jackman's.

We will welcome your comments first, Ms. Jackman.

We know, just for the committee's benefit, that Mr. Waldman was going to be making his way from court. Hopefully, he will still be able to appear here.

Ms. Jackman, the floor is yours.

4:35 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual

Barbara Jackman

I was told to make some opening statements, and then the committee members might have questions.

I'll first explain my experience with electronic monitoring. I have represented three clients who have been subjected to electronic monitoring in the immigration context. Two were cases involving national security, and in one the person was alleged to have been involved with a street gang a number of years previously and not at the current time. The men were put on electronic monitoring, along with other conditions.

In the two national security cases I was involved in with electronic monitoring, it has continued from the spring of 2007 to the present time, so they've been on GPS bracelets for about five years. The man who was subject to it in the immigration removal context for criminality was on it for two-plus years.

My experience has been such that I would never recommend it, except on a short-term, fixed basis for individuals where it was the only alternative to continue detention in the immigration context. I think it can be a useful tool in some instances, but there has to be a limited time for it. When people are on it indefinitely, it becomes a cruel measure, particularly when it's in conjunction with other measures, such as house arrest. In some ways I think it's more cruel than keeping people in detention, because they're out, and if they're under house arrest along with the GPS bracelet, they are detained within their own homes. Their jailers become their family and this faceless person who's watching them on a GPS screen somewhere.

It can be useful in some instances, but you really have to think about why it would be needed. For instance, with kids who are alleged to be involved with street gangs, where they're bailed out, or even in the immigration context, where they're facing removal, putting a GPS on them for a while rather than detaining them, and subjecting them to a curfew would be useful. You would know if they were home by 11 o'clock because of the GPS, if you have an 11 o'clock curfew on them. In that case there's a concern that they may consort with their colleagues and other kids in the evening and engage in crime. There's a reason for it to be used in a specific limited sense—not with house arrest, but with a curfew.

It can also be useful, not even in the criminal justice context but for people who are suffering from mental problems, where you want to make sure they are safe and secure. It's a way of knowing where they are. It can be useful if you don't want people like pedophiles to go to certain areas. You want to keep them out of parks and school areas. In that sense you can track by GPS whether they're staying away from those areas. If they go into an area, you would be able to tell.

For most cases I don't think it's needed, and there's a real danger that you lose its purpose by imposing it. That's what has happened in our cases. I didn't get to read all of the transcripts of people who have testified here, but I read something John Hutton said before this committee about the technical breaches becoming the issue. That's what has happened in our cases.

If you look at the history of reviews in the Federal Court on security certificate cases where they've been subjected to GPS, it's the breach of conditions that becomes more of an issue than whether or not there's a concern for national security having been infringed.

We have spent days in court wasting government money by arguing. In one case he wasn't supposed to go on a boat. He went on a paddle boat. Was that a breach or not? He may go into a building where the GPS doesn't work. You need to know that the GPS doesn't work in the subway or in malls. It really is not useful for many kinds of daily activities. But in those instances, are those breaches or not? You don't want to waste three or four days in court calling experts and talking about what a breach is instead of national security, which is the real reason why the GPS was imposed in the first place.

None of us thought it through. It started in the Harkat case. Then other lawyers and the court jumped on board and decided that, rather than have such men detained at great length, they might as well give the GPS and house arrest a try. Looking back on it now, I would never, ever, suggest this for those kinds of cases.

In one of my cases, the guy tried to commit suicide two times. It wasn't just the GPS; it was also the house arrest. If there's anything dysfunctional in the family, it exacerbates it. The person can't leave the house without a supervisor, and if he's not getting along with his supervisor, the person's stuck in the home. There are a lot of problems with it over a long period of time.

I also think it doesn't afford the protection it's supposed to. For instance, in our cases the concern was that they didn't want them communicating with bad people. Well, you don't know if they are or not on a GPS; you can't see that. All you know is where they are or where they're going, not who they're talking to. So it defeats the whole purpose of having it. It's expensive, and it's not worth it.

I think what has happened in our cases is that it has become a crutch. Because it's there and can be used, it's used whether or not it's needed. So we have clients with five years on a GPS. According to most of the things I've heard about GPS, it's generally been used in a very fixed period of time. But that's not true in our cases. So I wouldn't support its use except in very rare cases.

In the immigration context, there are other ways of controlling, like voice reporting. They can have people call daily if they want to make sure where they are. Personal reporting, that's used quite often. You could link people up with a bail program—although the bail program in Toronto, which works very effectively, is not allowed to take on certain kinds of cases. Unfortunately, those are the cases they should be taking on, like the gang cases and the security cases, because they are effective in supervising and ensuring with human contact that people comply.

I guess those are my comments.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Ms. Jackman.

Mr. Rathgeber.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ms. Jackman, for your testimony on this matter.

You said that you had three clients who had some experience with electronic monitoring. I'm curious about whether they voluntarily participated in some sort of pilot project or if this was mandated by either a court or Corrections Canada. This technology is not widely used, and I'm surprised that you have had three clients who were subject to it.

4:45 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual

Barbara Jackman

In all three cases, when the GPS was originally imposed on them, they consented to it. In the two security cases, it was a Federal Court judge who imposed it. In the criminality immigration case, it was an immigration division member who imposed it, along with house arrest and other conditions.

The problem came up two years later. They wanted to get off the GPS and the court wouldn't let them. It's become a crutch that the courts use unnecessarily. I say this in light of the record of compliance during the past five years.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

It was not part of a pilot project? This was an actual condition of their release?

4:45 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual

Barbara Jackman

Yes. It would be good if someone did study them. They all suffered from serious psychiatric issues as a result of long-term use of the GPS.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Right. But you would agree with me that if the only way they're going to be released from detention, whether it's a remand centre or some sort of immigration detention centre, is to be subject to conditions and one of those conditions is an electronic monitoring device, their mental health is advanced by releasing them from that detention centre, in keeping with the conditions that either the Immigration Appeal Board or the court deems appropriate.

4:45 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual

Barbara Jackman

No, I don't think so. My experience has been that....

Sorry, go ahead.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Are you suggesting that their mental health would have been advanced if they had been detained?

4:45 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual

Barbara Jackman

I think it would be the same. They were clearly depressed in jail. But it didn't get better when they got out, because of all the problems that went along with the conditions of release. You can't make your wife and your kids your jailer. You need to go pick up something at Home Hardware or Home Depot and you can't go out without your wife. Their conditions are not on their own; they're part of a package, and that package is very harmful to a person's mental health. Usually, they don't just put the GPS on; they put it on with house arrest.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Assuming that is true, that you can't make your family and your spouse your jailer—and I guess we'll have to have that debate some other time—why would anybody consent to be released if one of the conditions was the GPS? It appears to me that the GPS wasn't the problem. The problem was they didn't want to be jailed with their spouse and their family. That's what made their release problematic. It wasn't the device that made it problematic; it was who was jailing them.

4:45 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual

Barbara Jackman

It wasn't the device itself, but along with it you had to call every time you went out, every time you came back. You had to tell them what your itinerary was, exactly where you were going. They have a monitoring unit that follows them around. So it's not just the GPS; it's the intrusion into their personal lives. The thing is that they did agree to those conditions. What I'm saying now is if I had known how harmful the package was over the long term—six months, fine, not five years—I would have recommended to my clients to never agree to it.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

I've never done immigration law, so you'll have to help me out here.

Are these cases not periodically reviewed? I know it takes a long time for a refugee appeal to be finally determined, but are the conditions of release not periodically reviewed? If the release is, for whatever reason, unconscionable or uncompliable, can’t the individual consent to be retained?

4:50 p.m.

Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual

Barbara Jackman

Detention, once you're out, is not an answer either. I'm not saying that release on conditions is better than detention—it's worse than detention. They're both bad in the long term when you're not alleged to have engaged in criminality. There may be concerns about these people, but in the criminal sense, they've served their sentence. In the immigration sense, they're facing potential deportation; that's the issue, and that's why they're subject to controls. But I don't think the answer is to go back to jail.

Yes, we do have reviews. We go back to court and we try to get rid of the GPS. So far we haven't been successful. The court has maintained it because it was imposed in the first instance.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Do you know on a national basis, because I don't, how many removal orders are issued in Canada every year by the Federal Court or by the Immigration Appeal Board?