Evidence of meeting #28 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gps.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Ms. Jackman.
We'll now go back to Mr. Sandhu, please, for five minutes.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
I'm going to go back to my....
Actually, would you like to just finish your...? I know you were interrupted a few times. Would you like to respond to Ms. Hoeppner's questions from earlier on?
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
Okay. I'm going to go back to my original question, which I asked you last time.
When a removal order is in place, if the person doesn't want to go back, they can simply cut off GPS or electronic monitoring, whatever they have on them. They could still disappear into the wilderness, anywhere in Canada. Is that correct?
5:25 p.m.
Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual
I don't know enough about how you can get out of the GPS. None of my clients has tried to do that, so I don't know how easy it is to cut it. I would assume that if you can cut the bracelet off, you'd just leave it in the house. Nobody would know you have left. The reason they know you have left is that the GPS starts to act when you go away from the docking station. If you take it off and leave it by the docking station, they won't know.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
You've mentioned that you've had to go to court a number of times and have wasted court resources because there were breaches of conditions involving your client.
Could you talk about some of the difficulties your clients have had with GPS or electronic monitoring with respect to the technology itself? Have there been breaches concerning which you've had to explain to CBSA officers about a GPS malfunction or in which the technology wasn't working?
5:25 p.m.
Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual
If my client came to see me, the GPS didn't work. CBSA would either have to know that he or she was coming to see me—so they would know it wasn't going to work; otherwise they would be concerned....
The GPS has put my client 30 kilometres away from where he actually was, because it's not always accurate or effective. If he goes into a mall to go shopping with his family, the GPS doesn't work. There have been times when it is sounding an alarm when there's no reason to sound an alarm. So yes, there are ongoing problems with the GPS, such that CBSA officers are engaged with the client on a regular basis about it.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
Thank you.
We're nearing the end of our time, so I'd like to go back to the statements you've made about these being an additional, unnecessary condition. Would you say that we already have adequate mechanisms without adding GPS to the other conditions?
5:25 p.m.
Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual
Let me get this straight: we don't need to add anything. They can put GPS on people now. My client, the one who was being deported for criminality, was put on a GPS bracelet by an immigration division member. My security certificate cases were put on GPS by a Federal Court judge.
They have a broad power to impose conditions on a person. Conditions can include GPS; they can include house arrest. You don't need to add anything specific; it's already there. And right now, it's used sparingly. They only do it in really serious cases.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
Would you say that without the GPS, the other tools we have available would be sufficient?
5:25 p.m.
Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual
The other tools have worked for as long as I've been practising law, and I'm sure before I started practising law more than 30 years ago now. They have been for the most part pretty effective.
In the few cases in which GPS has been imposed.... It's only a few cases; they haven't felt the need to do it in other cases. The CBSA haven't even been asking for it.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
So you're saying that in cases longer than six months, you don't see that there's any value added, but that in fact there are some detrimental impacts.
5:25 p.m.
Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual
Yes. I think if you want to try to make sure the person will comply, put it on for six months and then evaluate the case and take it off at that point. You don't leave it on for five years.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much.
We have just two minutes left. I know Ms. Young has a question that she was trying to get out much earlier.
Ms. Young, if you wouldn't mind, ask your question quickly.
March 6th, 2012 / 5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
It will be very quickly.
Thank you for appearing before us, Ms. Jackman. You've made a whole slew of very wide-ranging allegations and linkages that I think are interesting but unsubstantiated.
I would like to ask you—given that you're a refugee and immigration lawyer, perhaps we'll focus on your area of expertise—what the difference is between a refugee and a refugee claimant.
5:25 p.m.
Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual
Under the convention, a person who is in need of protection can apply to a state to be recognized as a refugee. Until people are recognized as refugees, they can't be sent back to their home countries. They are treated as refugees until a determination is made. When a determination is made that they are refugees, it's a declaration of a status they already have. That's how it's looked at in international law.
We don't treat refugee claimants as criminals, and we never have.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Right. However, you did say that you had some people under certificates, etc., and that you had maybe three people who are under electronic monitoring. Is that correct?
5:30 p.m.
Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual
Yes, two are security certificate cases and one is a criminality case.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
In other words, there are claimants here who have some criminal—
5:30 p.m.
Conservative