Public Safety Committee on May 31st, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We'll now move back to the opposition side.

Mr. Rafferty, please, for five minutes.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for being here.

Originally, Mr. Chair, I had questions about Border Services, and I may have an opportunity to do that. But what I am most concerned about, listening to the testimony here today, is that we're not getting any answers on the Regional Treatment Centre, and I want to concentrate on that with Commissioner Head.

I'm sure, Commissioner, you'll agree with me that the physical space the Regional Treatment Centre has is not suitable; it doesn't work any more within the Kingston Penitentiary. One of the things that struck me about the Regional Treatment Centre and all the staff at Kingston Penitentiary was the pride they take in their work; they do it so well. I'm sure you'll agree with me that they do a wonderful job.

The treatment centre doesn't just deal with issues as they arise, but they do wonderful work in preparing patients to return to the general population. We really didn't get any answers, and I'm concerned about a comment the minister made about keeping on as many staff as possible.

I'm sure you have plans for the Regional Treatment Centre, Commissioner. Can you tell us if you intend to keep the centre and the staff as an entity when it does move? You'll probably agree with me that it should be expanded, but I'm not asking that. Will it remain as an entity and be put in suitable quarters to ensure the staff can continue the good work they've been doing?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Rafferty.

Mr. Commissioner, please.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes, I think the Commissioner has the background.

[Don Head]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I agree with the comments that have been made that the staff at the Regional Treatment Centre.... Overall I agree that all my staff are the best correctional service staff in the world, and I have no problem making that statement and no problem backing it up. The staff at the Regional Treatment Centre are equally as exceptional in comparison to any of the provincially based treatment facilities you would find in the country or in North America.

Absolutely, I agree the space they're working in is outdated. We're talking 1905 space. It's not conducive to the best mental health care for those inmates.

As we go forward, our plan is to look at how we keep the Regional Treatment Centre entity together so that we can continue to try to provide the best mental health care we can, given the mandate we have under our legislation. We have to look at the available space. We're working through a few options at this moment. I wouldn't want to declare them right now because we have to work out a few details, and then we have to talk about the staff implications, and those are discussions that are best for us to have with the unions.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Commissioner, for being clear.

Let me just go to Leclerc for a second; there's a hospital there. What would you say about the hospital at Leclerc?

[Don Head]

As the minister has pointed out, the facilities that are closing are not at the upper end of the scale. These are facilities that are not effective, not efficient, and were built in a different era for a different purpose. We're going to look at how we use the new cells that are coming online in the best way we can. All this is being taken into account in relation to our planning of the placement of offenders.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Let me just be entirely clear, then, Commissioner. If I understood you correctly, you wish to keep the Regional Treatment Centre together as an entity in a new facility so they can do their job to the best of their ability.

[Don Head]

It's my desire to keep the Regional Treatment Centre entity together. What actual space they go into.... We'll have to make some modifications to any space we move them into. For example, a negative pressure room—we'll probably have to build or modify cells, but the plan is to keep that entity together.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

After visiting that centre and Kingston Penitentiary, if you can do that, if that is your desire, I think that is a worthy goal in this particular exercise. To not have patients in cells that are 177 years old is a good way to increase the treatment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have about 10 seconds.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

What it will also do, if you go down that road, Commissioner, is ensure that the Regional Treatment Centre stays accredited, because they are on the line now, where they are in this particular facility. So I hope you will continue down that road.

[Don Head]

The short answer about accreditation is yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Rafferty, and thank you, Commissioner.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Could I have a very brief minute?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I'm sure Mr. Rafferty would also like to congratulate the commissioner and the Correctional Service of Canada for the international award they won in respect of mental health programming in our facilities not that many months ago. I'm sure if Mr. Rafferty had had the time, he would have taken time to congratulate the commissioner.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Chair, with your indulgence, I will in fact agree with that. Considering what they have to work with—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Very quickly. Thank you, Mr. Rafferty.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

—I think they do a fabulous job, and it's a well-deserved award.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll now go back to the government side for the last round. Mr. Rathgeber, please.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for your attendance with all the members of your team.

I want to return to Mr. Norlock's questions with respect to pending legislation regarding discipline at the RCMP. Perhaps I could start with the commissioner.

Commissioner Paulson, you indicated earlier this week some frustration over the current discipline process. I think you referred to it as an antiquated discipline process, and I'm curious to know if you've applied your mind to what a more modern or less antiquated discipline process might look like for members of the RCMP.

[Commr Robert Paulson]

Thank you for the question.

More on what I said earlier, and as the minister has pointed out, we want to have corrective behaviour. We want to call it a conduct management system. We want our members, where possible, to correct their behaviours. In order to do that, you have to do it as soon as possible and at the lowest possible level of supervision. So that's one of the principles that I'd like to see incorporated into the system.

The other one is on the removal of the bureaucracy and the legalistic.... Although I appreciate that there needs to be a legal dimension to the discipline process, where we are going for dismissal is that we have to do that in a manner that both respects the need for fairness and also the organizational interest. That would be my ideal.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

As you might know, I represent Edmonton. There was an incident very recently regarding an officer at K Division who faced a disciplinary hearing. My simple question is, is the recommendation of that disciplinary hearing binding on you, and is it binding on the force? Or is that advisory? Is the finding of the disciplinary hearing binding on the force and on you as commissioner?

[Commr Robert Paulson]

It is actually binding on me in the sense that I cannot appeal or substitute a sanction. I could take the matter to Federal Court and seek to have the Federal Court substitute it, and I tried that in a recent discipline process. The advice I received was that it was unlikely to succeed, and therefore it would have been a waste of everybody's time and money.