Evidence of meeting #64 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Luc Portelance  President, Canada Border Services Agency
Don Head  Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
François Guimont  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Bob Paulson  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Graham Flack  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Richard Fadden  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Harvey Cenaiko  Chairperson, National Parole Board

December 5th, 2012 / 4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good afternoon, everyone.

This is meeting 64 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security on Wednesday, December 5, 2012.

I will remind each of you that today the meeting is televised. Please turn your cellphones to the silent mode or turn them off. I'll start by making sure that the chair's phone doesn't go off, after making the request that you shut yours off.

We are considering supplementary estimates (B) 2012-13, votes 1b, 5b, 10b, 45b, 50b, and 55b under Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

As our witness today, we have Canada's Minister of Public Safety and National Security, the Honourable Vic Toews. He is accompanied by his officials.

From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have François Guimont, deputy minister. Welcome.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Commissioner Bob Paulson. Welcome back.

From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Luc Portelance, president.

From the Correctional Service of Canada, we have Commissioner Don Head. Welcome.

From the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, we have Richard Fadden, director.

We also have the National Parole Board represented by its chairperson, Harvey Cenaiko. Welcome.

Our committee thanks the minister and his officials for making themselves available to answer questions from members of Parliament related to the supplementary estimates. Canadians know that the minister and his officials have appeared numerous times before our committee and have always been helpful in our deliberations.

I would encourage all members to keep their questions specific to the supplementary estimates. Certainly we want to keep them in the context of what we're here to study today.

Mr. Minister, I know your time is limited. Because of the votes we've been held back a little bit, and I understand you have to leave at 4:30.

We would love to first hear your address and then open it up to members for questions.

4:10 p.m.

Provencher Manitoba

Conservative

Vic Toews ConservativeMinister of Public Safety

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My staff and the officials will be here for another hour after 4:30.

I'm pleased that the committee has shown such a strong interest in examining the expenditure of taxpayer dollars. It's a pleasure to speak to you and to answer questions that you may have with respect to the supplementary estimates (B) currently before this committee.

Since you've introduced all the officials here, I won't have to do that.

Let me be clear at the outset. I can assure you that our government will not engage in risky new spending schemes or in endless spending that will increase deficits, and we will not increase the tax burden on Canadians. Our government is committed to ensuring the most efficient use of Canadian taxpayers' dollars. I can assure this committee that this will continue to be at the core of our agenda.

In these supplementary estimates, Public Safety portfolio organizations are requesting parliamentary approval for a net request of $447.9 million. The most significant requests include $180 million to be allocated for the disaster financial assistance arrangements, or DFAA, and $242 million to be allocated for contract policing. Also, following up on the Prime Minister's commitment, there is another $50.2 million in flood mitigation investments to help communities devastated by the 2011 spring and summer floods.

As we indicated at the time, both the DFAA and the contract policing figures were not available for the preparation of the main estimates. It was therefore not possible to include these funding requests in the 2012-13 main estimates.

I think it's worth mentioning that these three items make up 99% of the funding that we are requesting.

It's important to note that in 2012-13 the Public Safety portfolio will reduce its total appropriations by $179.4 million to reflect savings measures announced in economic action plan 2012. Savings for this fiscal year will be achieved through measures to restructure or streamline some administrative and research functions.

Building safer communities for all Canadians remains a top priority for our government. Our intention is to strengthen our already impressive track record on that front in the most fiscally responsible way possible.

If approved by Parliament, funds requested through the supplementary (B)s will be prudently invested in, among other things, disaster recovery and mitigation initiatives in communities across Canada, as well as in Canada's contract policing model and in our ongoing efforts to strengthen security at our border while ensuring that we facilitate the movement of legitimate goods and services.

Today, natural disasters across Canada have resulted in a significant increase in provincial and territorial requests for assistance through the DFAA. A recent example is the severe flooding that occurred last year in my home province of Manitoba, in Saskatchewan, and in Quebec, which resulted in significant response and recovery expenditures. The supplementary (B)s seek approval for $180 million in additional funds for disaster financial assistance arrangements and $50.2 million for the financial support to provinces and territories for 2011 flood mitigation investments.

For many years, the federal government has played a very important role in helping communities recover from natural disasters through programs such as DFAA. The effective mitigation of these risks is also our top priority.

This thinking forms the foundation of our national disaster mitigation strategy, which was launched in 2008 as a collaborative effort across all levels of government to develop sustainable, disaster-resilient communities across Canada. This is why our government committed up to $99.2 million over three years in economic action plan 2012 to assist the provinces and territories with the cost of permanent flood mitigation measures undertaken in 2011.

Our government also remains committed to discussing with the provinces and territories the development of a longer term national disaster mitigation program, recognizing that mitigation can lessen the impact of natural disasters on vulnerable communities, reduce the costs associated with these events, and enhance community resiliency.

Committee members will know that at the time of the main estimates for this fiscal year, we indicated that Public Safety would be returning to Parliament through supplementary estimates to seek funding to reflect the full federal costs of contract policing under the new policing services agreements.

The new policing services agreements came into force on April 1, 2012, for a period of up to 20 years, expiring in 2032. However, at the time the main estimates were being prepared, the government was still negotiating with the majority of the partners, and consequently it was not possible to include this in the main estimates.

Supplementary estimates (B) seek funding of $242 million for the federal cost of contract policing services for all contract jurisdictions and to provide incremental funding to meet requests for new policing resources requested by provinces, territories, and municipalities for 2012-13. The new agreements that our governments have reached represent the culmination of a lengthy and important negotiation process, nearly four years of hard work and commitment on the part of our respective officials. I want to thank our officials very much for the hard work they did in that respect.

The new agreements address the key issues raised by provincial, territorial, and municipal governments during negotiations, including governance, accountability, program sustainability, and cost containment. They offer increased input into issues affecting the quality and standards of contract policing. They also provide for a sustainable police service by ensuring a fairer sharing of all legitimate and actual costs of delivering police services in each jurisdiction.

Supplementary estimates (B) seek $33.1 million for initiatives that support commitments under the action plan for perimeter security and economic competitiveness. This includes $21.9 million to the Canada Border Services Agency, $9.8 million to the RCMP, and $1.4 million to Public Safety Canada.

We're making great progress on implementing our commitments under the action plan. More work continues every day.

Last month we launched an accompanying pilot in Prince Rupert, British Columbia, to inspect marine cargo in transit by rail under the principle of “screened once, accepted twice”. This helps save time and money for both businesses and government.

We've also enhanced benefits for NEXUS members, a joint Canada-U.S. trusted traveller initiative to facilitate movement across our shared borders by pre-approved travellers. Last June we amended the three-year residency requirements to extend NEXUS eligibility to non-resident Canadian and U.S. citizens. This allows our citizens who reside abroad and who meet program requirements to benefit from NEXUS. We've created new NEXUS lanes across the country in both B.C. and Ontario.

All of these initiatives and many more will go a long way toward helping to ensure we continue to deliver on our commitments under the action plan.

Funding requested under supplementary estimates (B) addresses ongoing priorities as well as new and renewed initiatives. As well, we're seeking funds of $20.4 million to further maintain the quality and integrity of front-line services offered by Canada border agents.

The safety of Canadians depends on our ability to run effective programs, services, and initiatives. To that end, I respectfully ask the members of this committee to support these supplementary estimates.

In the few minutes remaining, I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll move very quickly into the question round.

For the first round of seven minutes, Ms. Bergen, please.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

Thank you as well to each one of the officials. I want you to know how much we appreciate the good work you do in helping to keep our country safe.

Minister, I want to ask you about something very specific, and that is CBSA, the Canada Border Services Agency. There has been a lot of misinformation from the opposition and from others with regard to what some of our changes have meant. I think the motivation sometimes for the misinformation might not always be honourable, because we have made some cuts to fat in CBSA and to some areas where taxpayers' dollars were going that didn't necessarily produce what taxpayers would ask for, which is to keep our borders safe and secure.

I'm wondering if you could comment specifically on the investments that we have made with regard to front-line border officers, as well as what some of our changes have meant. For example, there has been misinformation out there that we've cut drug-sniffing dogs at the border. We know that this is not true.

Can you clarify our investments at the border, and what some of our changes to waste and mismanagement have meant?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you very much for the opportunity to clarify some of this. I'll have to be very quick about it.

I want to emphasize, first of all, that contrary to some of the assertions that have been made by some, front-line border officers have not decreased. In fact, since we came into government, there has been an increase of 26% in border officers. These are front-line officers.

Also, I note that some indicate the drug-sniffing dogs have been eliminated at the land borders. This in fact has not happened. There has been some restructuring in respect of where these dogs are deployed, but we do retain them at the land borders, because we feel that's probably the most effective place for those dogs to be.

In terms of some of the other details, perhaps the president of CBSA could add certain other details in respect of the budgetary issues.

4:20 p.m.

Luc Portelance President, Canada Border Services Agency

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You're correct. In fact, the cuts at CBSA have been aligned with transforming a lot of the back-office work we're doing, realigning programs. The front line, which really is the people that you meet at primary, either at land border or air, has not been affected.

I think the way to measure success is that the volumes over the past few years have been rising steadily at about 6% a year. That's over the last two or three years. Notwithstanding that, our wait times have gone down, our enforcement actions have remained steady, and our inspection rates have been maintained. I think that's a pretty good indicator of the commitment that we continue to make, both in facilitating travel and also in enforcing the laws of Canada.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

When there is an attempt for contraband to be smuggled across the border, can you tell us if it is intercepted directly at the border the majority of the time because of a front-line officer checking a vehicle or an individual by chance, or is it because of intelligence and work that's done even prior to that specific group or load coming in?

4:20 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Luc Portelance

It's a combination. It's a layered approach. First, we do a lot of pre-screening, whether it's in air or in the marine mode. Sometimes it's officer intuition; other times it's through various detection technologies.

We do take a number of containers aside every day to inspect them, based on risk management and targeting, and a lot of the seizures we get come from that particular process. At other times, the tips we get from our law enforcement partners generate our own intelligence.

It's a variety of factors. Occasionally, it is officer intuition, but certainly we don't rely entirely on that.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you.

Minister, I'm wondering if I could go back to something else you talked about, and that's the emergency measures, the disaster financial assistance agreement that we have with the provinces. You mentioned your home province of Manitoba, which is also my home province. Of course, some of the major flooding occurred in 2011 in my riding of Portage—Lisgar, right around Portage la Prairie.

When the Prime Minister visited the riding, obviously you were there and the Minister of National Defence was there, and there was a very firm commitment made by the Prime Minister in terms of the mitigation efforts that provinces were undertaking. Can you talk about what we've committed to provinces under the mitigation portion of fighting flooding and also about the program we have under DFAA, the disaster financial assistance?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

I think we have to make it very clear that those are two separate things, and you have done so.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Yes.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

DFAA essentially compensates provinces for eligible damages under the agreement. That is negotiated between the provinces and the federal government.

At last dollar, the Government of Canada was paying about 90¢ on the dollar, and that formula ratchets up very quickly to that 90% issue. I think in Manitoba the disaster financial assistance kicks in after a little more than $1 million, maybe $1.5 million. After it kicks in, the percentage basis increases very quickly.

What I was very proud of the Prime Minister announcing, however, was the mitigation, which we as governments have not really gone into to a great extent. There was some mitigation back in 1997, after the big flood in 1997, where there was an agreement between the federal government and the then provincial government, which I happened to be a part of, in terms of mitigation. That mitigation has frankly saved the Government of Canada millions and millions of dollars. In some of the serious flooding, no residential homes were destroyed as a result of the mitigation. We committed for 2011 about $100 million in respect of flooding that can go toward mitigation.

Just as importantly, we're undertaking discussions right now at the deputy level to see how we can create this national mitigation program so that we're not simply compensating year after year, rebuilding the same bridges, the same culverts, year after year, but actually putting mitigation measures in place so that we can fix it once and for all and save the taxpayers a lot of money in the long run.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We'll move quickly to the opposition.

Mr. Rousseau, you have seven minutes.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Toews.

I do think it is worrisome to see that the supplementary estimates provide no additional funds for the Canada Border Services Agency, especially given the many revelations over the past few months and weeks. It is clear that officers are lacking financial resources. Human and material resources are lacking. Reinforcements are clearly needed. We have mentioned many situations that have been revealed—both by us and the media—and we think this really puts people at risk.

Why allocate more resources for detaining women and children who are victims of human trafficking—as was the case for the latest group of Romanians that arrived in Ontario—when cancelling the $140-million cuts would help prevent such a situation and would ultimately really give our officers some resources? This is not mentioned in the supplementary estimates.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Well, in fact, if you had been listening to what I'd said, there is an additional $21.9 million being requested for CBSA. I find it strange to be answering the question I've consistently answered. Yes, we are putting more resources into front-line services. We are putting in 26% more officers than when we came into office.

However, it's not simply putting more officers on the street so that we can catch and release people who are breaking the law, who are actually breaking the law, part of the criminal organization; you actually have to put legislative measures into place. And you and your government—or your party—have consistently—

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC

In 2015.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Did you say “carbon tax”?

4:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC

Good one, Mr. Toews.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Carbon tax, yes.

You and your party consistently oppose the measures that we bring in to facilitate the CBSA officers in actually carrying out their jobs, and that concerns me.

I mean, if you were actually concerned about the crossing by these individuals—

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC

Sorry, Mr. Toews, but that's not what people are telling us at the border, at the point of entry.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Well, here you have—

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC

They're lacking material and they're lacking the money for more guards. They're lacking cameras, IT, a lot of things, and we're not seeing that in the supplementary budget.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

We can talk about all of those initiatives under the beyond the borders initiative. I hope your party will support the beyond the borders initiative, because that in fact is what we are going to start talking about, namely, alternate methods of ensuring that we can facilitate trade and travel across the border.

It's also about ensuring that we do stop criminals from utilizing the border, as exactly has occurred in your area where they have been utilizing the border areas, and where you—

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC

There's a reality—