Evidence of meeting #85 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was veterans.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sandy Sweet  President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network
Captain  N) (Retired) Paul Guindon (Chief Executive Officer, Commissionaires Ottawa, Canadian Corps of Commissionaires
Colonel  Retired) Douglas Briscoe (Executive Director, National Office, Canadian Corps of Commissionaires

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Welcome, everyone. This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security on Tuesday, May 7, 2013. We're continuing our study of the economics of policing in Canada, and we're very pleased to have our first witness today. His name is Mr. Sandy Sweet, the president of the Canadian Police Knowledge Network.

Our committee wants to thank you for being here today. We were wondering how some of that online training of different police happened and, hopefully, we're going to learn a little bit more about that now. I'll turn the floor over to you.

9:10 a.m.

Sandy Sweet President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

Thank you. I guess I could have done this through video conference and it would have been more true to form, but that's all right. I just have a few short comments to make, an opening statement of six minutes and 32 seconds, by my watch last night. Hopefully that will prepare some context for the questions that will follow.

The Canadian Police Knowledge Network is a federally incorporated not-for-profit entity that partners with the police community to develop and deliver technology-enhanced learning. We are the leading provider of e-learning in the Canadian police and law enforcement sectors.

I am here today to share my thoughts and experience regarding police training in the context of the economics of policing discussion. I have participated in two of the regional sessions, as well as the summit that occurred here in January.

Though there has been much dialogue about the sustainability of the current policing model, I found it interesting that there has been little or no discussion about training as it relates to potential efficiencies. In this country we consume about $1 billion a year in police training. That's 8% of the overall $12 billion on policing, yet nobody is looking at this strategically as a way to do things better. That's what I'm going to talk about today.

My objective is to share what I know about the benefits of technology as it relates to training both economically and otherwise, and its potential to be part of the overall solution—and I stress that it's part of the overall solution. It's not the be-all and end-all. The work we've done has shown many advantages of taking a more strategic, collaborative, and sector-wide approach. Above all, we know that we can enhance the effectiveness and efficiency of training with improved use of technology.

Don't get me wrong, I think that police training in this country is mostly done very well. I'm not here to bash trainers to any extent. But I also think the model must continually evolve and must improve to gain efficiencies to meet new learner expectations as well as to keep pace with the changing needs of front-line police officers.

I don't believe that technology is the be-all and end-all. You can't learn how to swim online. There are some things they have to show up and do face to face, and we're not going to eliminate that. What we're going to do is make the best use of the time spent in classrooms and make sure that knowledge transfer happens as efficiently and effectively as possible.

A little background on CPKN. We've been around since 2004. As I said, we're not-for-profit. Currently we have about 100 courses in our catalogue, many of those in French as well as English. We have about 75,000 registered users. If you think of the Canadian police community, there are about 70,000 front-line officers. We do police and law enforcement, so we have a pretty good penetration in terms of across the board. And collectively those users have completed about 400,000 courses online. So we've been around for a while, and we kind of know this business as well as anybody in this country.

Interestingly, we have an 85% approval rating from end users from the use of the courses. Again, we are building effective courses that people like. Our mandate is to increase accessibility, scope, and cost-effectiveness of training. We also play a significant role in introducing innovation to this sector.

Interestingly, our model does not rely on any annual government funding. Revenues are generated based on a very low cost pricing model where individual police services can calculate the value in the ROI themselves. So we're not-for-profit, we're run in a very businesslike fashion. I like to tell people we're not for deficit. Last fiscal year I think we broke even, or we were ahead by $10,000, and that's where we like to be, just barely breaking even.

The reasons for our sustainability and success are really three-fold. E-learning has some very well-known value propositions. The first and foremost—and I won't get into all of them—is that you can take four hours of classroom training and distill it down to about one hour online. So if you think of the efficiencies of that, there's ample opportunity for value when you put that across all police training. Build it once, use it many times. You collaborate on that. We have courses that we've been using now for five or six years. We update them and keep them modern, but it's the same content. So you don't have to keep bringing in new subject matter experts, or continually using different people across the country. It's about anywhere, anytime access.

Secondly, our model is very collaborative. I am the head of an organization of about 20 people, none of whom is a police officer, none of whom are former police officers or subject matter experts. We rely on the police community to identify priority training topics, to come to us with the content and the subject matter experts. What we can do is turn that into an effective online training experience. It's about cops teaching cops cop stuff, but in a very different delivery mode.

The third thing we have going for us right now is the whole network of relationships that we've built up over time. We're connected with every police service in the country: all the major police training academies, the Canadian Association of Police Boards, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, and on it goes.

Our board of directors is the main selling point for our network. You've had some of these people already here in front of you. Commissioner Chris Lewis of the OPP is on our board, as are Chief Andy McGrogan, from Medicine Hat, and Geoff Gruson from the Police Sector Council. In the past, people like Julian Fantino have been on the board. He was chair for a few years until he got busy doing something else. I'm not sure where he is these days.

The model we've created is a best practice, really. In a sector well known for its stove-pipe tendencies and for its jurisdictional rigidity, we've been able to break down some of those silos and build courses that work across the country.

As it relates to the economics of policing, while all of the things I have just talked about are great, but we believe that we're just scratching the surface. We can go much further. I talked about the $1 billion. There's ample opportunity for efficiencies there and that's what we have to concentrate on. On the $1 billion, if you were to ask most police services what their training budget was, they would look and see the line item “training budget”, and that would cover trainers' salaries, classrooms, supplies, tuitions, and those sorts of things. But it doesn't count, in a lot of cases, are things like travel and accommodation to go get training, backfilling, and overtime for people who are off on training. But most importantly, what it doesn't count is the amount of time of those bums in chairs. The people in the classroom are getting paid, so we have to calculate that. When you bring all that into account, it's $1 billion a year. There's stuff we can do around that.

We have tons of studies—as I said, we've been around since 2004—demonstrating the ROI of moving from traditional classroom to an online or blended approach. We can talk about those. Also, research shows that online training, if done correctly—which I say because there's a lot of schlock out there—can be equal to or better than classroom training. That's the goal of this, to build really effective stuff.

So why are we only scratching the surface, given all the hard evidence to the contrary? There are lots of barriers to change, as we know. Everybody loves the status quo; nobody likes to change. There are cultural, financial, and technical issues.

The cultural bias is the hardest to overcome. Most of the people in this room, some of the younger people maybe not, grew up in classrooms. We are used to having that kind of training, consuming training in that way. There are a lot of institutions that are built up to train that way. Despite that hard evidence, we have to break the status quo. This is disruptive innovation. It's about shaking things up.

I want to stress that training in this country, by and large, is done well. I'm not saying to throw that model out, but I think we can do it better and that we can do it better in lots of ways.

The last thing I want to talk about is that regardless of what I think or what anybody wants to do, change is going to happen. We know that. We know there are forces at work here that are larger than any of the status quo forces. Demographics, technology, and economics are all things that are converging right now.

On demographics, we know that younger people and most front line police officers are in that demographic. An average hire these days is around 26 or 27 years old. About 50% of front line police officers have less than five years experience. You put those two things together and you know that most front line police officers are young.

They embrace it, and are fully adapted to consuming information and training through technology-based mediums. It's not simply a preference. Research is showing they actually process information differently than other generations do. I'll leave it to you to define other generations. But I'm in that group and we must respond to that change.

They don't sit in the classroom very well for two weeks. They just don't. They don't learn stuff. They have their hands in their pockets. They're texting people. They're doing things. You tell them what they have to learn, tell them by when they have to have it learned, and they'll come back ready to do the face-to-face, hands-on stuff.

With technology, we know that change is ubiquitous; it's not standing still. Gaming, simulations, community practice, massive open online courses, mobile learning, just-in-time learning, and operational support tools.... RoboCop kind of stuff is not very far in the future. This is where we're going. We can't stand still; we have to pursue this.

As it relates to the economics, what's interesting is that training is the first thing that's cut. When you budget cut, training is easy; it's just sitting there. As we know, it's deferred maintenance. You're going to pay the price for that at some point. If we do this right we can benefit the police community. Build it once, use it many times; it's cost effectiveness that way. We can reduce the amount of effort going into training by minimizing resources required to produce training, thereby minimizing duplication. And we can convert a significant portion of the time officers currently spend in training to time on the job, where we want them. This improves productivity without impacting quality.

To sum up, to do it right we have to have research, best practices, and sector-wide collaboration. I think the $1 billion is a good target and should motivate us.

Thank you.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

We'll go into the first round of questioning.

We'll start with Ms. Bergen.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Sweet, for being here.

Actually, I have been asking a few questions about training. You're right, in that it seems like not a lot of people have a lot to say about it or have seen it as an issue. This is the first time I've actually heard a price tag associated with it—the $1 billion. That was out of $8 billion, you said?

9:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

Sandy Sweet

If you look at the StatsCan report, it's $12 billion a year that we spend on policing in total.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

And $1 billion of that is training?

9:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

The reason I'm interested in it is that I've just come back. I was at RCMP Depot Division in Regina a few weeks ago. There is classroom training, clearly, but there is also the simulators they use for driving, firearms training, as well as real-life scenarios. They actually showed us a screen that was a whole wall. The person who was showing us was the police officer. A man was getting out of a car and approaching him. They said this actually happened in the States. The police officer ended up dying. They went through every scenario where they were able to bring the man down.

Do you know what I'm talking about?

9:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

Sandy Sweet

Yes, I've seen that.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

It's very, very interesting.

What I found to be very positive was that there's a real consistency in the training model as well as the police advice: whatever situation you're in, here are the values and here is the cycle you're going to go through in your thought process and what action you're going to take.

I'm really interested in the online training. In my mind, I just see the on-line training as somebody sitting in front of a computer reading some information and then answering questions. It's pretty basic. Am I missing something? When I see what happened at Depot, how can that be translated into an online course?

9:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

Sandy Sweet

It's a great question. I think in the future we're going to look at a bunch of different tools. They're doing the simulations at Depot and at a couple of other places. Depot certainly leads the country in that area, especially the firearms training around skills acquisition.

There are many things you can do around knowledge transfer, before people ever get into a simulator, to make them understand the IMIM model—the use-of-force model—and the theory behind it before they actually exercise it.

We're also starting out using some gaming technology in some of our online courses so that you can get into an immersive simulation in the midst of a course. You can do the knowledge transfer, do some of the theory piece, and then let people practice in an online scenario. It's no different from playing a Grand Theft Auto on Play Station 2—that kind of thing.

As I said, it's still early days for us, but five years ago we wouldn't use video in a course, whereas now video is in all our courses. We know that we have to evolve; technology isn't standing still.

Think of those young cadets at Depot and if you could give them access to some sandbox they could play in before they actually got into the full-fledged scenario. It's a very expensive piece of infrastructure they have at Depot, and that's why people aren't replicating it across the country yet.

I think what we'll see is a continuum of classroom training—you're always going to need the face-to-face stuff—immersive simulation, gaming technology, online knowledge transfer, and communities of practice, with operational support tools and immediate feedback. You see now on police shows the vast amount of video available because people have cameras in their cars, and now people are starting to wear those cameras. Those are going to be training opportunities in real-life situations.

That's why I say that what we need, going forward, is research, best practices, and a sector-wide approach to finding what the training model of the future looks like. It's all about getting the best skills for people for the least amount of cost.

There's great stuff happening in Depot. For example, in the firearms training they do, they prove that you can sit with the simulator and do just as well as somebody beside you with a real gun, but at a fraction of the cost and certainly with no risk.

Yet police organizations don't change very quickly, so they want more and more research. I think what we have to do is convince people that there are new ways of doing things. As long as you qualify with a real pistol, it should be fine.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

After being there and seeing the amazing facilities they have, not only the simulators for driving training or other purposes, but the real-life.... They have full houses built, bungalows and two-storey houses, and they go in and do real raids. It's amazing.

When I saw it I thought: we need to be using this, I'm thinking, at the federal level.

Is it something the federal government could do, to offer this to police services to come and have their training provided—of course, covering the costs, etc.—to make better use of Depot?

I know we're talking about your company and what you do online, and I want to talk more about that—I'm sure there will be more questions—but with your experience, do you think this is something the federal government could do: to offer Depot as a training facility?

9:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

Sandy Sweet

I know there's capacity at Depot to do more training. The Regina police are right there, and the Saskatchewan Police College is right there, and they take advantage from time to time of that capacity.

I think the model of shipping people around the country to train them is passé. I don't think the future of police training is in bricks and mortar; I think it's around technology-enhanced learning of the best kind.

That's a fairly long view I'm taking. In the interim, could we take advantage of that capacity just to prove that it works and to get people used to it? There could be another regional centre in Chilliwack, B.C., and another one across the country—that sort of thing. But bringing everybody to Regina, in my mind, because of the high cost of policing, is adding to police training costs.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

The travel—

9:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

Sandy Sweet

It's part of that billion dollars that nobody is looking at.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Mr. Garrison, please, for seven minutes.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Sweet for being here today.

My background is in post-secondary education. In the criminal justice course we try to offer new methods of delivering. I'm interested in your saying that you're not receiving any funding; that you're doing it all from cost recovery on the courses. My question may end up being a compliment: it's a rare program that can actually cover overhead costs out of the course fees. There are lots of programs you can run in which people are willing to pay for the courses, but not many people are willing to pay for the infrastructure that allows their delivery.

Can you say a bit more about how you managed to do that? I'm guessing I may be offering you a compliment, because I've never seen this happen.

9:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

Sandy Sweet

Thank you for that. We're proud of the fact that, nine or ten years on, we are sustainable and that we haven't raised our prices since we started. What we depend on is low-cost, high-volume. So over time if you look at our growth curve, it started out very low, as technology traditionally does, and then we hit the hockey stick or the tipping point and it's taken off. That allows us to make some incremental investment in terms of additional capacity and additional technology, but our pricing is.... The average cost for one of our courses is less than $25. So when you think that replaces about a day in the classroom, you can't get a day in a classroom for $25 for an individual.

It's funny that when we first started we only had two comments about our pricing. One was, “Wow that's cheap”. The other was, “Why do we have to pay anything?”. We've found ways to ensure that we....

As I said, we're 20 people and our budget is less than $2 million a year, but our revenue is right around the same and we just keep chasing that. We deal with the RCMP, the OPP, with Toronto, three organizations that cover half the police officers in the country. We have coast-to-coast—Vancouver, Calgary, whatever. We find that every police service is different, but we find the sweet spot with them where they like what we do. So it works for us.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

You also talked about the need for funding research and also for doing studies of best practices and those kinds of things. I'm guessing that those go beyond the costs that you're actually covering now. Can you talk a little bit about the situation for research and better ways to deliver training?

9:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

Sandy Sweet

It's very difficult. We've had a couple of research projects where we've found independent third parties to come in and look at our courses and evaluate them, and we can learn from that. One was funded by the Canadian Police Research Council, which is now part of National Defence. It was great. I think that project was about $100,000. We put about $100,000 worth of in-kind effort into it, but we came out with some very tangible results that we could communicate to people. But it's a very labour intensive way to.... It's not just a matter of sitting there and you go pick it; you really have to follow the application process.

We've worked closely in the past with the police sector council. I think Geoff Gruson was in front of this group. Part of the funding they had was for research and, again, we had independent third parties come in.

But it's tough to go out and find that. We've recently started talking to universities, and most large police services across the country have a great affiliation with their local university or community college. That helps them not just with training, but with higher education as well. So we're hoping to tap into that to get people interested. You know, post-secondary education is changing dramatically as we speak as well. They have the same economic challenges facing them as policing does. So their model of how they deliver courseware is changing. So they are interested in us because we have 75,000 registered users. What a great sandbox for them to play in, in terms of research.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

In terms of users of your courses, I know that in post-secondary education we've talked about alternative methods to delivery. The presumption was that people in rural and remote areas would be able to access this, and people who, say, are working non-traditional hours, but wanted to study. But actually, in the college that I worked in, we found out that they weren't those who accessed these things at all. In fact most of the people, as you talked about, were people who found this method of learning more amenable to their learning styles. We were still left with difficulties reaching those other people in rural or remote areas. So when you talk about online training and those kinds of things, could you talk a little bit about whether you're meeting the challenge of rural and remote areas?

9:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

Sandy Sweet

There are issues around bandwidth. We don't like to design our courses to the lowest common denominator so that they work everywhere, but for somebody with high-speed Internet, they're just not taking advantage of all the media richness that can be available. So we kind of play with that, finding the right balance there.

Two of our largest police organizations in this country, the RCMP and the OPP, both have large geographic areas to cover and therefore huge challenges on the training side. The OPP has done some interesting things in terms of having remote satellite classrooms. I think there are five or six across Ontario. They don't have to bring everybody into the academy in Orillia; they can bring them into Thunder Bay or wherever, and have them access training that way.

From a technical point of view, delivering courseware is for us much less challenging than it used to be. You know, the dial-up kind of days are.... You still hit them in remote places in the north; we still have issues. We've found some ways around those, with DVDs. There aren't very many of those people, so you just use a different alternative for delivering that.

We find that we've had great buy-in from those places, because they get access to training that normally they would have to fly out to get—spending thousands of dollars on it.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Mr. Norlock, please, for seven minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Through you to the witness, thank you for attending today.

I'm very interested in the training, and in the training through the new modules. Some of us who have been out of the business for quite some time saw the introduction of that, and the benefit of it.

I wonder if you could talk about the regulatory regime around training. A great deal of the police training, at least as far as I can recall, was mandated because of coroner's inquests, because of inadequacies found in policing and the need to bring officers.... I think of this particularly with regard to pepper spray, the proper use of the ASP.

I wonder if you could talk about some of the reasons why. I know that continues on today, with a scheduling nightmare around what the OPP refer to as “block training”.

For those who may want to know, that's when you take an officer out of the detachment and they go through intensive training once a year for four days.

I wonder if you could you talk about that, and about the ability of smaller police forces to provide the same quality and quantity of training as opposed to some of the larger forces that you talked about.

9:35 a.m.

President, Canadian Police Knowledge Network

Sandy Sweet

There's a whole bunch there, but I'll try my best.

No surprise to anybody here, policing in this country is seen by most people to be a provincial jurisdiction. There are police acts in each of the provinces across the country, with varying degrees of police training prescribed in them.

Ontario has adequacy standards. It's very clear that in order to be a police organization in this province, you have to be able to do this, that, and the other thing in terms of the expertise you must have on your police force. Then you train to those standards.

In other provinces, B.C., Alberta, and Saskatchewan—Manitoba now has a new police act—people are moving in that direction. We're being more prescribed as opposed to laissez-faire around that. A lot of it comes from liability, the liability that gets exposed through inquiries, such as the Dziekanski inquiry or whatever.

To go back to a point I made earlier, when you see an inquiry, training is one thing that always comes out of it—you've got to train better here—and yet when the budget is cut, training is the first thing that goes. There's a dichotomy there.

I think we will never have a national training standard in this country. “Never” is a long time, but I don't see that coming. But you can have policing.... If you take the jurisdictions out, policing in any province compared with the next is very similar. So if you concentrate on those commonalities, you can get best practices and build good training around them.

For instance, the Alberta Solicitor General built a series of courses on investigative skills education. We've taken that, and it's now being used in British Columbia as well as Prince Edward Island. There is an opportunity for other jurisdictions to learn from one jurisdiction.

So as it relates to that big question about training standards across the country, we're kind of in a world of hurt there because of the provincial jurisdictions. You know, it's about that sector-wide approach and about the collaboration; I think we can go at that.

I forget the last part of your question.