Public Safety Committee on June 18th, 2013

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Unfortunately, Mr. Scarpaleggia, you've taken all your time with the question.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Rousseau, for five minutes.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank both of our witnesses for being with us here this morning.

My first question is for Mr. Murphy.

As a professor of anthropology, you must have done an analysis of our police forces that takes the demographic aspect and the resistance to change into account. What we are discussing is improving the effectiveness and efficiency of our front-line resources without endangering public and national safety.

Given the culture of resistance to change within the police forces, how should we make changes with a view to moving to a new model, while being sensitive to this culture and not harming it? Despite this resistance to change, people want to serve. They are still very proud of their police force.

How, in your opinion, could we make these changes?

[Dr. Christopher Murphy]

That's a challenging question.

I think we're at a stage now where all police, whether they're managers, front-line police officers, or union members, have begun to realize that their organization is, to some extent, under siege both financially and in the expansion of demand. I think some police departments work more collaboratively than others. Others are not, in a sense, working together towards the same goals. But I think the involvement of the rank and file and the police associations will be central to any significant change in the way police work is done. Without their involvement, without persuading them that it's in their interests and in the interests of policing in general and the services they provide, they'll simply diminish in importance and effectiveness, and that change is actually going to sustain policing and make it healthier. I believe all of those things, but it does take a while.

There is a new openness now to discussing issues about change, and doing things differently, that didn't exist before. I don't really have any magic strategy or solution, other than let's open up a discussion and conversation and inform it with information. I believe people will make changes.

Perhaps the chief has some thoughts on this.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Torigian, despite all of that, are intergenerational conflicts and the assignment of duties not the main obstacles? We need police officers who have 35 years of experience in the field, to exercise leadership with younger officers, among other things. The young recruits have a very different mentality, regarding information technologies alone.

In that context, how should assignments be distributed, in your opinion?

[Chief Matthew Torigian]

The actual work a police officer is engaged in over the years hasn't necessarily changed to any great extent. Some of the tools and what we're doing have changed. The way I describe it in my own organization is, the raw material for policing is still the same: it's information. That's the business we're in. We cannot do anything without information. Then we need to process it, mine it, and change it, and turn it into something.

The skills required to take information and do something with it, and some of the tools we use in doing that, have changed over the years, but the actual task is the same. So it's very important, in some respects in certain positions within an organization, to still start in front-line policing and patrol, and generate the necessary skills that will eventually let you take information in a more sophisticated way and do something more with it.

There is the thought that we can start civilianizing specialized tasks a little bit differently in policing. For example, in forensic identification, do you necessarily need to be a front-line police officer and work your way through for 10 or 15 years before you go into forensic identification? Again, I think there are many models out there, some in the United States, some in the U.K., where they're experimenting with that.

On your point around the multi-generational workforce we have, and the different people who come in, and how you lead that change in organization, I think it boils down to leadership. That leadership exists at many different levels.

My personal leadership style is to lead from the middle, to build the capacity at the middle of the organization. I can have all the greatest ideas and directives in the world, but if I don't have a cohort of people who are engaged and who want to do the same thing, it gets clogged in the middle.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Unfortunately, Chief Torigian, I'm going to have to stop you there.

This concludes the time for our first panel. I'd like to thank both of our witnesses for being with us this morning and for their very valuable testimony.

We will suspend for three minutes to allow our next panel of witnesses to take their seats.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

We are coming back to order here for our second panel of witnesses this morning.

From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Mark Potter, director general of the policing policy directorate, law enforcement and policing branch; and Rachel Huggins, the acting director of RCMP policy.

Good morning, and thank you for being here. I know we call on Public Safety quite often, but it is the public safety committee. We always appreciate having you here and your contributions.

I'm not sure if you each have a 10-minute opening statement or how you wish to proceed....

[Mark Potter, Director General, Policing Policy Directorate, Law Enforcement and Policing Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

We'll be making one 10-minute opening statement.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Please go ahead.

[Mark Potter]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to everyone. It's a great pleasure to appear before this committee again and to speak with you about the economics of policing. As mentioned, I am joined this morning by my colleague, Rachel Huggins.

We've been following your work very closely and are pleased at the engagement of parliamentarians on this important issue and the wide range of impressive witnesses you have heard from during the course of your deliberations. We look forward to your report and believe that it will make a significant contribution to the work under way on the economics of policing and, most importantly, towards the future of policing in Canada.

Since we last met, there have been a number of developments. I'd like to take this opportunity to update you on those developments, as well as talk about the way forward.

First, however, I'd like to provide some brief background. The Minister of Public Safety has been providing strong leadership on the economics of policing. He has been engaged with all of his federal, provincial, and territorial colleagues through recent meetings of FPT ministers of justice and public safety to collectively advance this issue.

The work under way on the economics of policing is based on the following three commitments agreed to by all FPT ministers: first, to convene a summit on the economics of policing; second, to promote information sharing on policies and practices that improve the efficiency and effectiveness of policing; and third, to develop a shared forward agenda or strategy for policing in Canada.

The development of a shared forward agenda is a unique opportunity for governments to continue to demonstrate collective leadership. Such leadership can help contribute to the evolution of policing in Canada at a time of fiscal constraints and heightened public expectations.

As you know, the summit took place in January 2013. The summit was hosted by the Minister of Public Safety on behalf of all FPT justice and public safety ministers. The summit set out to meet three objectives: first, increase awareness of the economics of policing; second, provide practical information on how to improve efficiency and effectiveness; and third, get ahead of the issue so that we can take well-considered actions and avoid the drastic policing cuts being faced in some jurisdictions.

The summit was attended by over 250 participants from across Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and several other countries. Both formal and informal feedback on the summit was very positive. It achieved the objectives of awareness, practical information, and getting ahead of the issue. It also conveyed strong collective government leadership. A report on the summit is available on the Public Safety Canada website.

In fact, the summit and other developments, including the work of this committee, appear to have accelerated interest both in the issue of the economics of policing and, most fundamentally, the pace of police reform. The development of a shared forward agenda is intended to continue that momentum of change.

The closing session of the summit laid out a framework for advancing the issue of the economics of policing that is oriented around the three pillars of transformation. These are: one, efficiencies within police services; two, new models of community safety; and three, efficiencies within the justice system.

These pillars are underpinned by evaluation and validation of best practices, strengthened research, and of course engagement. The goal of the strategy is increasingly efficient and effective policing.

For the strategy to be successful, it must respect jurisdictional responsibilities for policing and it must be inclusive of the entire policing community and other key stakeholders. The goal, put simply, is to identify those areas where it makes sense to cooperate collectively. Engagement and consultation on the shared forward agenda are intended to flesh out this framework with proposed short- and medium-term actions.

The consultation plan is rolling out over spring and summer 2013. This process is being driven by all governments, notably through deputy minister and assistant deputy minister level policing and public safety committees. A core group composed of Public Safety Canada and the three champion provinces—Ontario, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia—will be taking the lead in identifying and developing specific actions for consideration by ministers.

In order to ensure that we get a broad base of input toward the shared forward agenda, we have put together a steering committee comprising this core group of federal and provincial government officials, along with key representatives of the policing community. The heads of the three national policing associations, representing front-line officers, chiefs, and boards, are on this steering committee, as well as an academic expert in policing, Professor Curt Griffiths of Simon Fraser University.

In addition to the development of the shared forward agenda, as directed by ministers, an index of police initiatives is being finalized as a tool to facilitate information sharing and learning from one another. The index is truly a collaborative effort by governments and police services across the country. We believe it is the first of its kind in Canada. The index brings together over 150 innovative initiatives, activities, and best practices in one database and will make them broadly accessible through a user-friendly search engine and on-line interface. I think many Canadians will be surprised at the many innovative policing reforms that are already under way in Canada and from which we can all learn. A number of the witnesses before this committee have referred to such innovative practices, such as the use of integrated teams to assist in responding to calls that involve individuals with mental health challenges, among many others.

In addition to such information sharing, policing transformation and innovation must be founded upon a solid base of evidence and research if it is to be successful. However, as noted earlier this morning, currently in Canada there is a limited policing-related research capacity, no central repository of accessible research information, and no agreement within the policing community on research priorities. A key aspect of the shared forward agenda will be to address such shortcomings.

In order to begin that process, Public Safety Canada has commissioned certain baseline research projects. Projects under way are reviewing policing research in Canada, use of performance measures, international comparisons of policing strategies, and the costs of police training in Canada.

Moreover, there is a major long-term research project under way on the future of Canadian policing. This project is being led by the Council of Canadian Academies and is assessing how policing is organized and delivered in Canada. The project is being undertaken by a number of eminent Canadian and international researchers. This independent study is expected to be released in late 2014 or early 2015.

In addition to strengthening research, another early focus of the work currently under way is on improving police training. A lot of money, as you know, is spent on police training, and the focus tends to be on costly and time-consuming traditional in-class approaches. Such approaches, as you have heard, are not always well-suited to the technology-based learning styles familiar to most new police recruits. Therefore, another short-term action will be to convene a two-day training summit with the Canadian Police Knowledge Network in September 2013. The workshop will bring together a wide range of participants to explore issues and approaches and help set priorities related to police training going forward.

Building on the index of innovative policing initiatives, Public Safety Canada will continue to advance information sharing through its economics of policing website. The website will act as a key portal to broadly disseminate policing information and research and to provide updates on activities related to the economics of policing.

To recap, in terms of next steps, we will soon finalize the index. There will be a training summit in P.E.I. in September, and based on the ongoing consultations, we will present the shared forward agenda to ministers in fall 2013 for their consideration.

The outcome of this committee's deliberations will, I understand, also be released this fall. Such timing would allow all governments to benefit from and draw upon your findings as we collectively shape the way forward.

That concludes the presentation. Your questions and comments would be most welcome.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Bergen.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to begin, but I think I'm going to share my time with Mr. Wilks. I think he had some questions.

Thank you very much for being here.

Mr. Potter, I'm sorry, did you say there were three different things that have come out of the report? One is the index that you referred to, the second is the training summit, and was there a third?

[Mark Potter]

Yes, the third is the development of a shared forward agenda or strategy for policing.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you.

Can you talk a little more about the index? I think that's something we've heard a lot of recommendations on and something that is a very concrete thing the federal government can do. Can you talk a little more about the information, the index, as well as the website and where you're at with that? Just describe it a little more. Then I'm going to pass it on to Mr. Wilks.

Thank you.

[Mark Potter]

The purpose of the index is basically to recognize that there are a lot of interesting and innovative activities happening across Canada. Of course, we're looking at the U.K., at Australia, and at the U.S., but there's a lot going on in Canada, so why not take the opportunity to learn from what we're doing right here and what works?

A number of provinces and police services have been pulling together information on things that have been happening at the local level over the past seven to eight months to improve policing to better serve their communities. They've compiled these into 150 different examples, and a number of these have actually been validated by researchers as best practices. That information is also related to these initiatives.

So if police services are thinking they want to improve in a certain area, this allows them to go into this database, enter search criteria, and find out what's happening in other parts of the country in those areas that they can learn from. There'll be contact and detailed information on the project or the initiative, so they can get more information, dig more deeply, and essentially learn from what's going on right across Canada.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Is it up and running already?

[Mark Potter]

The data has all been pulled together. Right now, we're at the stage of working with our IT folks to make it as user-friendly as possible. We're hopeful. We'll be going through our internal departmental processes to get approval to release this, but we're hopeful that towards the end of the summer it will be ready to be released. We want to put a product out there that's as user-friendly as possible. That's the goal.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

It would be through the Public Safety website? Or would it be absolutely its own website, as I know they have in the States?

[Mark Potter]

With our IT people, we're still working through exactly how that will line up. We're hoping that the economics of policing website would be the key portal for that. As to whether it has the capacity to handle that, we're still sorting that out, but there will definitely be links through that website to this index.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Mr. Wilks, you have about five minutes.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the panel for their presentations today.

You mentioned in your speech that with regard to the closing session, the summit laid out a framework, as you said, with regard to efficiencies within policing, new models of community safety, and efficiencies within the justice system.

That's one thing I want to target today. I wonder if you could explain a bit about the efficiencies in the justice system. I certainly have mine. I would like to hear yours.

[Mark Potter]

There are a few dimensions to this. There is what's happening federally, through the Department of Justice, to look at procedures and the use of technology in the federal courts system and how they can be made more efficient.

There are provincial initiatives. In fact, B.C. has been I think at the forefront in this. They've undertaken a couple of reviews. They now have a white paper. They're implementing change. To the extent that I understand it, they're bringing common management to the justice system to break down some of the silos and allow for efficiencies to be realized.

There are things happening on the ground at both the national and the provincial levels. There's also the issue.... I know you've heard about this from the Canadian Police Association, among others, which says quite rightly that the nature of the justice system has imposed certain costs. It has imposed certain requirements on policing, and that has a direct impact on the cost and the time associated with processing crimes, processing offenders, and so on.

Another dimension of this is to recognize that things are happening federally and provincially, but also to ensure that those police voices, from front-line officers or from chiefs, are heard and are factored into those ongoing federal and provincial reforms, so that they do not lose sight of ensuring that what they're reforming, what they're changing, also responds to the views, needs, and perspectives of the policing community itself. We're pulling together through this steering committee—and B.C. is actually leading this component—what are those views of the policing community on areas that could be improved.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Certainly in my years of policing, I felt that efficiency versus effectiveness was paramount. The police need to get the job done as quickly as they can, they need to do it as efficiently as they can, and they can't have roadblocks put in front of them. Personally, I think we've researched a lot of things to death. We come up with the same answers, but we don't come up with the efficiency model.

I'll give you a good example. In 1973, the RCMP came up with a community policing program. In 1999, they came up with a reinvented community policing program. If you were to put the two together, they would be exactly the same. So we research and we research, but we don't do anything with it.

I do like your idea with regard to one database system. A good example is that a lot of police departments in Canada are on PROS, while some are on PRIME. Why do we have two? Why don't we just have one?

Could you talk to that a bit, with regard to having one data system? With respect to the perspective of the police, they need to be consistent. They can't have one piece of data here and one piece of data there and think it's going to work, because it doesn't.

[Mark Potter]

I think the challenge is that the policing community and other public services face a way of focusing the mind right now, focusing on how you deliver your operations more effectively. IT is a very good example of that.

We saw an example in the U.K.—I think this was mentioned earlier—where there had been these 43 police services. All of them had their own IT systems that didn't always match up. When faced with 20% cuts, they realized that while they didn't necessarily want to have a national IT system—although that may be the direction they ultimately head towards—they certainly said they would look at neighbouring counties and align their IT systems with them, because they're often involved in joint operations with them. They felt they could realize cost savings by having one administrator of their IT system, which would be a shared service between those two counties.

I think we're going to see more of that in Canada as we go forward, where there's a recognition of potential cost savings associated with cooperating on certain administrative areas like IT.