Evidence of meeting #25 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was finance.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Young  President, Social Capital Partners
Norm Tasevski  Co-Founder and Partner, Purpose Capital

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Colleagues, welcome to meeting number 25 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Just to set the agenda straight, votes are going to cause us some confusion today. The bells will go in 10 minutes for the votes. As a result, unfortunately, our meeting will be interrupted, so there will be some discussion taking place with our witnesses as to the possibility of staying a little longer. I understand flight arrangements would have to be made in order for that to happen, and this committee certainly understands that. Over the course of our break, we will get to that.

Today, we have from Social Capital Partners, Mr. Bill Young, the president. Mr. Young will make a presentation to us very briefly. He'll have up to 10 minutes for that presentation. At that point, we will break as soon as the bells are called. We will go to the House of Commons for our vote, and when we return, if Mr. Young is able to stay for the balance of the period and/or our time, he will be available for questions.

Also, in the second hour, we will have a presentation from Mr. Norm Tasevski from Purpose Capital. At that point, both of our witnesses would be available for questioning from the committee.

At this point, that is the direction the committee is taking, in consultation with some members and, of course, the clerk, and with the cooperation of our guests today.

Mr. Young, you have the floor, sir, for up to 10 minutes, please.

3:30 p.m.

Bill Young President, Social Capital Partners

Thank you very much. I'd heard that I would have 10 minutes, but I didn't realize that you actually get a gong after 10 minutes. This is pretty extreme.

3:30 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:30 p.m.

President, Social Capital Partners

Bill Young

Here's what I thought I'd do. I know that this is on social finance, and I thought I'd just take you through our story and the elements of social finance that we've used in our story, and how that might apply to public safety, if we link that to it.

We have been about employment opportunities for disadvantaged populations. Social Capital Partners was formed in 2001.

I'm one of these lucky people who happened to be in the right place at the right time. In the private sector, the wheel of fortune spun awfully well for me. It sure doesn't spin well for everyone, and I thought, how do I take my business experience and leverage it to do good?

The thinking behind Social Capital Partners was this notion. Why have we separated the world into what business does, what non-profits do, and what government does, when a lot of the innovative solutions are probably somewhere in the intersection of those things? Social Capital Partners said, “Well, why don't we actually try to see if we can't make some of these new approaches effective and why don't we take a particular social challenge?”

The one we took was this one: how do you find, in new and innovative ways, meaningful employment opportunities for people who face employment barriers? We've been through three phases of that work. I'll just describe quickly—obviously, quickly—those three phases. Maybe somewhere in there we'll generate some questions.

In our first phase we asked ourselves, why not start up businesses that do this as part of their DNA, the social enterprises? Again, to make a long story short, we played the role of social venture capitalists, whereby we provided funding, sometimes in the way of loans and sometimes in grants, but only to organizations where at least 50% of their employees come from disadvantaged populations.

I'll give you an idea of the types of things we did. There's a property management company in Vancouver today that's owned by a charity that helps women who were victims of violence. It employs 200 people. There's a renovation company in Winnipeg today that employs urban aboriginals from the inner-city neighbourhoods of Winnipeg. It employs 45 people and today is still profitable.

By the way, and just as relevant to this committee, approximately half of those people had criminal records before they were employed.

There's also a bicycle courier company in Toronto that hires directly from youth shelters. There are 12 thrift stores in Montreal that are hiring directly off the provincial social assistance rolls.

Those are the types of organizations we work with. Each of them has an interesting story, but just to get through this, I'll say that at the end of five or six years we stepped back and asked ourselves, where are we? We said that on the one hand we had proven one of the things we wanted to prove, which is that you can make these double-bottom-line companies work. They can work financially—they can be profitable and sustainable—and they can work socially, in that they can transform lives.

On the other hand, it had taken us five or six years to provide 300 or 400 jobs, and what's that in the global scheme of things? We got into this change of the landscape to try to make this more the way we as a society think about generating some of our economic and social returns, and frankly, what we are is an interesting magazine article. We're seen as an anomaly.

We asked ourselves what we had to do to change the landscape. We said that if we were going to change the landscape, we would have to do two things. One, we would have to engage the private sector in what we're doing, because otherwise we were going to be seen as an anomaly. Two, we would have to make it more of a cookie cutter, because start-ups are hard, and start-ups are arguably even harder with this model, and we can only do one deal a year because we have to drop everything we're doing to figure out how to get a business to work.

With that, we thought, private sector, cookie cutter; what about franchising? Why not go to established successful franchise operations with our value proposition? That proposition was that we would provide start-up capital to a business person who wants to buy one of the franchise locations. We would make it subordinate to their bank debt and do it at attractive rates. In fact, our rates are actually tied to what our social mission is.

Our condition for our loan was that they had to implement a community hiring program. They had to agree to a fixed number of their employees being hired through the community service agencies that were helping people who face employment barriers. Our promise back to that business owner was that we would get them a competitive pool of candidates to choose from, and that if we did not deliver on that promise, they did not have to deliver on their promise to hire the fixed number. We said that they would be the sole judge of whether or not we delivered on that promise.

We effectively de-risked it for the private sector. We thought that was the way to get them to buy in. We tie our interest rates to the number of community hires, so as they hire more, their interest rates come down. We link our financial return to our social mission.

Again, to make a long story short, we've done almost 60 of those, mainly in the car service area. We like the car service model. Mr. Lube and Active Green and Ross are our biggest ones.

We like the car service model because you don't need that many skills to change oil—although as I always joke, it eliminates me—and you can work your way to being a licensed mechanic. We liked those ones where there was a good socio-economic outcome assured for people who are ready to turn their lives around.

We thought that was the idea, that we would do hundreds of franchises, thousands of jobs. The model is working the way we hoped in the sense that we can now do two or three deals a year, because we don't have to figure out the price of an oil change or what to sell a winter tire for, all the things we did have to figure out in phase one.

A couple of things happened which I probably won't go into the details of, but they made us realize the idea was much bigger. It was really when Active Green and Ross came to us and said, “Okay, we want to use your community hiring program in our company owned stores. We don't need your financing.”

We thought, wait a second; we thought the financing is the carrot and stick to make this whole thing happen. We offer a carrot of attractive financing. We have the stick we call your loan, if you don't do this. They said, “No, you found us access to a labour pool we never would have had access to. They're working out. It's the right thing to do for the community. Why wouldn't we do it?” We thought, yes, why wouldn't you do it. Why wouldn't everybody do this, if someone made this easy for them?

After doing this for about 50 and 60 franchise locations, we learned two things. One, employers would do this if someone made this easy for them. Two, it's very difficult for them. The reason it's very difficult for them, and this might be the subject for more questions in terms of the details, in simple terms is the system at large has never considered the employer as important a customer as the person for whom we're trying to find an employment opportunity.

So, product gets to market: product being a job-ready individual who faces an employment barrier; market being an entry level job in a company that has a good career path. Product gets to market in Canada to literally thousands of community service agencies whose training and background is primarily as social workers. They don't speak the language of business. They naturally think their customer is the person they're trying to find an employment opportunity for which makes sense.

They don't think of the employer as strategic. They think they're in a transaction relationship with those employers where they send their job candidates out to all the various job postings out there, not in a strategic relationship with that employer, where they say to that employer, “What makes for a successful lube tech at Active Green and Ross? What are the characteristics of that? Where are your pain points? We are going to solve your pain points.”

We realized we were playing a band-aid in the system. We call ourselves bilingual, not because we speak English and French, sadly. It's because we speak the language of business and we speak the language of community service organizations. We get that we have to make the employer as important a customer in the equation as the person we're trying to find an employment opportunity for in order to provide as many employment opportunities as possible for the people we're trying to help.

In a system this large, we spend billions of dollars on employment, training, and social assistance. For the most part, employers aren't involved in the design for that training. That training isn't linked to our future workforce development shortages, and very little of the funding is actually tied to successful employment outcomes.

A successful employment outcome is what the supply side of this equation wants. The people we're trying to find jobs for want to find jobs they can stay at and progress at. It's also what the demand side of the equation wants. Employers want to find people that can stay and progress.

At the heart of what we believe now is that we should be working at the systems level and trying to make the system a much more of what we call a demand-led system where both customers are recognized as important. We think it's the single biggest lever that exists out there to provide way more job opportunities for people who face employment barriers. If I link it to a public safety issue, etc., I think this demand-led lens could and should have a big impact on the design of a kind of a way that any system would be thought of.

We believe that the key for all of us in many ways is that employment is as important a thing that we can do for not only our economic outcomes but for our self-esteem and confidence. I think that lends very much to a public safety or recidivism issue as well.

At the heart of what we are now trying to do is work with employers, governments, community service agencies, and existing recruiting agencies to think about how to implement a more demand-led system.

We've released a white paper on what a demand-led system would look like, in conjunction with Deloitte. We are doing a couple of demonstration projects for a couple of provincial governments. Our approach is to demonstrate what it would look like on paper if you were designing a system which starts on the demand side and works backwards. Where do we know there is going to be meaningful employment opportunities in the future? What sectors will those opportunities be in?

In our demonstration, we said we would get employers from those sectors to commit to 10 community hires a year for five years. It's not a big number, but it would give us a cohort of 100 per year. We would get those employers to track the employment outcomes of those 100 versus the employment outcomes they are getting hiring those same people from other channels.

Every year, using the data and with feedback from the employers, we will iterate every step of the value chain on the supply side, from the intake to the assessment, pre-employment training, placement, post-employment support provided for the people we are trying to find jobs for, to determine what is missing and where we should intervene. This is so that we can deliver two things to the governments in five years' time. One is a business case for employers to hire through this channel, by providing data on the employment outcomes and by having 10 CEOs out on the conference circuit with us talking to their peers on why they should do it. The second thing is, we could tell governments exactly where we think they should spend their money to leverage exactly...where we think the system should be measured, managed, and funded.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Mr. Young, the bells have started to ring.

Thank you very much for your presentation. We're very hopeful that somehow some arrangements can be made to have you back for the second hour should the committee have questions, but as the bells are ringing, we will now suspend and go back to the House. Thank you once again. We apologize, but because of the process of Parliament, the bells are ringing, and we will have to suspend.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Colleagues, we will resume.

Our first witness of the day, Mr. Young, had to catch a plane, so he is not here for the second hour for questions. That, of course, was not planned. We were interrupted by the vote.

For our second hour, we have with us from Purpose Capital, Mr. Norm Tasevski, co-founder and partner.

Sir, you have the floor for up to 10 minutes. After that, I hope you will be available for questions or comments from our members.

4:35 p.m.

Norm Tasevski Co-Founder and Partner, Purpose Capital

Excellent. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for inviting me to speak on this very important topic.

You've heard from Bill Young, albeit briefly. He's one of the gurus, one of the leaders, of social finance in Canada. I will not attempt to replace what he has to say or to offer, but what I can do is try to focus my remarks more succinctly on the applicability of social finance to crime prevention, or the how-tos. We'll offer some suggested social finance structures that the committee may choose to consider in building social finance into its overall crime prevention strategies.

From a crime prevention perspective, social finance provides a mechanism to redefine the role of all actors, the state, the private sector and the public sector, in how community is built, maintained, and kept in good order. It offers what we call a blended response to crime and its effects, and more powerfully, a blended preventative action that minimizes its occurrence in the first place.

Social finance represents a breaking down of the traditional silos between private gain and public good. Today the private sector invests for the purposes of private gain, and the foundation world and government invests for the purpose of public good. Social finance breaks these silos down. With social finance, private sector actors with the right motivation and intent, and I emphasize motivation and intent, can invest for public good alongside private gain. The role of the foundation world and government also changes. No longer having the burden of acting alone, governments and foundations can now have a true partner, a rich and more genuine partnership than that offered by the traditional public-private partnership model. With social finance tools, governments and foundations can now focus on incentivizing private actors and establishing the conditions by which they can finance public good.

Social finance shifts the discourse around society's response to crime. An outcome of social finance is the creation of a new dynamic in our community. The community bond, as an example, provides average citizens the ability to invest in buildings that matter in their communities. Life leases provide the ability for people in social housing need to invest in their own care and in their own housing.

Crime prevention by its own very nature is a community effort. It is not simply the responsibility of the police or the courts to address crime, nor is it the responsibility solely of the social sector to respond to the negative effects of crime. With social finance, the community and private sector and public institutions can create a new dynamic in our community in which the community itself addresses the root causes and after-effects of crime and prevention in a blended manner.

Social finance provides the tangible mechanisms and structures to facilitate community-based crime prevention. It also creates the ability to build new tools that even 10 years ago were simply not options in the tool kit. I'll offer you three examples that the committee may consider in social finance.

One structure is what we call a catalytic capital fund. Simply put, catalytic capital structures bring together different categories of investors, what we call the social-first investor and finance-first investor, into the same investment opportunity. One investor category invests its capital and agrees to absorb a certain pre-set level of investment loss. In doing so, this investor group reduces the risk associated with the overall investment opportunity. The second investor category then invests its capital, typically at a much larger amount and in the vicinity of 80% to 90% of the total capital invested. Due to the reduced risk, the second investor group receives a return that is more in line with their risk-return expectations, typically the market rate. The first investor therefore acts as a catalyst to stimulate the injection of new, and potentially significantly more, capital than would otherwise be invested in the initiative.

Catalytic capital not only changes the risk profile for different classes of investors, but also firmly embeds social value into the fund and its outcomes, even though some of the investors have different motivations.

My firm, Purpose Capital, has experience building these types of initiatives and profiling how catalytic capital funds in other jurisdictions have created social impact. Though our experience does not directly relate to crime prevention, I am confident that a catalytic fund model can be applied to crime prevention.

A second structure, which Bill Young might have even alluded to, is the social impact bond. SIBs are an innovation to the more traditional PPP model. A simple way of understanding SIBs is as a method for pay-for-performance financing for public good outcomes. It provides a very low risk and in some SIB models actually a risk-free method for governments to support public good initiatives.

The way that a SIB works, a government partners with what is known as an intermediary. The intermediary raises and manages capital from banks, financial institutions, foundations, and private individuals, and it invests those funds in the service providers that then deliver the innovative social programs.

In the delivery of these programs, the service providers reduce or replace the need for government to directly fund or issue transfer payments. As the government partner sees savings materialize, it pays a percentage of those savings back to the investors that initially financed the program.

The SIB model has been applied in other jurisdictions, most notably in the U.K. where the concept first originated in 2010, and governments in Canada have started to research, build, and launch SIBs at home. There was actually an announcement a few days ago in Saskatchewan regarding what we think is the first SIB in Canada.

Should SIBs be a model of interest for the committee, you should bear in mind a few things.

First, one must understand how to place value on the outcome one seeks. Second, there must be a mechanism to determine whether the outcome is actually attributable to the intervention itself. Third, the parties involved in an SIB, most notably the government partner, must be prepared to rethink how interventions are financed and how the intervening parties are held accountable.

This rethink may require a culture shift towards outcome-based financing and different methods of operating that may be fundamentally different from how governments and service providers currently finance and operate.

A third option for the committee to consider is to build a mechanism that directly finances highly innovative social enterprises. I can describe what a social enterprise is. This option plays off the idea of investing in an SIB; however, the investment here is made directly in the intervention itself.

An example that could relate to the committee's work is that of Peacebuilders Canada. Peacebuilders is a charity that has worked for over a decade to provide better youth access to justice. One aspect of their work involves redirecting first-time youth drug offenders from the drug courts into their program, a program that applies the techniques of aboriginal healing circles that work with youth to address the root causes of their drug offence.

Their model has resulted in recidivism rates of under 20% compared to recidivism rates in the court system of 60%, if not higher. The cost of delivering the Peacebuilders programming is also a fraction of the cost associated with prosecuting a youth offender. I believe the numbers are about $120,000 to prosecute a youth offender compared to about $30,000 for Peacebuilders programming per youth.

Peacebuilders is also building innovative social enterprise options. Purpose Capital briefly worked with Peacebuilders to help them develop an enterprise that takes the positive skills young drug offenders learn on the streets, for instance, managing the supply chain of illicit drugs, and applies these skills to the selling of legitimate products in kiosks and stores.

These three social finance options are, in my opinion, the tip of the iceberg. Social finance not only increases the government's tool kit for addressing crime, but also provides a new model for how community can create a blended response that leads to a richer and more effective means of community building.

However, I will end my remarks on a more cautious note. First, social finance is not a panacea. It is but one tool that cannot be expected to replace other interventions in the world of crime prevention. Social finance is premised on the ability to generate financial return, and because of the need for return, this type of tool is appropriate only for some interventions, not for all.

Second, there is much potential for an upside with social finance; however, the magic is not in the what of social finance—in other words, the structures—but in the how, or the implementation. In Canada we are still learning about how to do the how really well, and it is a work in progress. However, I firmly believe Canada will become an important contributor to the global movement toward social finance, and the work of this committee can add one more voice to this choir.

Thank you very much.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Mr. Tasevski.

We will go to a round of questioning for seven minutes.

Ms. James, go ahead, please.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you to our witness for appearing today.

I want to get some clarification. Do you make the initial investments or are you more of an intermediary?

4:40 p.m.

Co-Founder and Partner, Purpose Capital

Norm Tasevski

We act as an intermediary in the system. The way our business works is that we work with asset owners and asset managers. We help them to think about how they can engage in the impact investment ecosystem, and then we possibly help them to structure how that capital can be moved. We don't place our own capital, but we work with other groups to help them place their capital.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

You find the areas where there is a need for those investments to do good and also to get a return on the original investment.

It's interesting, because we talk about the intermediary, and here you are.

In our first hour, which was cut very short, our first witness talked about whether it was easier to find and connect these groups together. Is that the purpose of the intermediary? Does it make it easier for the person who wants to invest into social good and the groups that actually need...?

Is that your role?

4:45 p.m.

Co-Founder and Partner, Purpose Capital

Norm Tasevski

Yes, that is our role.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

We can all think of Tim Hortons and Canadian Tire and so forth that do different things across Canada, but do you find that in your experience...? First of all, how long have you been in business doing this?

4:45 p.m.

Co-Founder and Partner, Purpose Capital

Norm Tasevski

Purpose Capital itself has been around for about four years, but I've been working in this space for about a decade now.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Do you see a demand for this? Is there a demand, a market to fill? Obviously, if you're still here after 10 years, I would guess the answer is yes.

4:45 p.m.

Co-Founder and Partner, Purpose Capital

Norm Tasevski

Yes, there's definitely a market for the service we offer.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

In your opening remarks, you said that you've not really dealt with crime prevention per se. When working as an intermediary, do you see any of the companies or corporations you've worked with that want to invest...do you see any of that being aligned with crime prevention?

4:45 p.m.

Co-Founder and Partner, Purpose Capital

Norm Tasevski

I see it aligned in maybe a bit of a nuanced way. In a lot of ways, crime is an effect of elements in society that are missing, right? Whether it's youth without opportunities for employment or youth without opportunities for education, they resort to a certain behaviour because they don't have the means. The social system in place is missing parts. Some groups that are participating in social finance for impact investing are trying to fill those gaps in other ways. The after-effect of filling those gaps will potentially lead to reduction in crimes.

As an example, one of the areas that we focus on as a firm is in the space of real estate. We look for what we call impactful real estate, groups that are trying to develop civic assets in a way that helps society to solve some of its very pressing social problems. Impactful real estate can include social housing, as an example, or a community centre, or a place for sports. In those ways, you give someone a place to sleep that is of a certain quality, and you give them the opportunity to get employment and to enjoy the trappings of life that will create the conditions, in my opinion, that reduce the likelihood of crime.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

In your remarks you also talked about social finance creating an environment—I'm not sure if those were the exact words you used—but the ability to have tangible measurements or a way to, after the fact, go back and see whether you succeeded with your targets, and based on those, the social finance aspect of it comes into play.

As you know, governments fund crime prevention programs. We have been investing a lot of money, but a lot of that has been directed more at changing attitudes without any real capability to determine long term, down the road, whether there have been any tangible results, whether we're able to reduce recidivism or prevent crime in the first place. That's one of the reasons we're here today: to see if social finance may be, as you said, another tool in the tool box. It's not the answer to everything, but certainly if we can bring more money into the fold and invest and expand our capabilities, it's something that I think any government should be looking at.

I have one other question. You talked about the need for a culture shift. Obviously, up until this time, at least within many governments across Canada, whether federal or provincial—you talked about some social finances being deployed elsewhere—certainly it's always been the responsibility of the government or the police to prevent crime. You said it shouldn't be only government or only the police, whether it's the RCMP or local police forces on the ground, but that really it's the community, everyone, who should be concerned about this. I think that's a very good point to make.

Do you see any hurdles for the federal government? I guess this is going back to the culture shift. Do you think that we are here now—based on some of the evidence that has come out, evidence-based successful projects—where the federal government should be looking into these?

4:50 p.m.

Co-Founder and Partner, Purpose Capital

Norm Tasevski

That's a multi-dimensional question. I think I'll tackle that in a couple of ways, if I can.

One, on the culture shift question, the idea of social finance is trying to bring us back to a state where the full community is engaged in solving social problems. It's not just the responsibility of the government to directly finance certain interventions that will lead to the reduction of crime. I would say that over the last 200 to 250 years in western society, we have created this idea that there are certain things that are the purview of the government, certain things that are the purview of the private sector, and certain things that are only the purview of the social sector. That bifurcation, that categorization, has led to gaps being seen in the delivery of the social services and programming that improve our societies at large.

The idea of social finance is that it's bringing those groups back together, saying that there really wasn't a need for this separation of responsibilities, for one doing one thing and another group doing another. What we're able to do now is to have government be a true partner to a non-profit organization or a charity, in true partnership with a for-profit organization.

In the world of social finance, and this is something that I think is really key to note, the people who invest the capital, the supply side of capital in the impact investment space, have a genuine desire to engage in community development. It's not like it's a large corporation that's trying to place its capital.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Mr. Tasevski.

Your time is up, Ms. James.

Mr. Garrison, you have seven minutes, please.

May 27th, 2014 / 4:50 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

I thank the witness for his presentation. I also have to mention Mr. Young's presentation.

I will say, however, before I ask a couple of questions, that we on this side are still a bit mystified about why the government is insisting on spending this much time on such a narrow topic. Even when we have approached people to be witnesses, they are surprised that the broader issues really aren't being addressed. We look forward to getting some witnesses before the committee who will look at the broader issues of crime prevention.

Of course, we have placed motions on notice for dealing with things that are really the responsibility of this committee and an important part of our mandate in terms of oversight of the government, such as the failure to deal with the mental illness crisis in prisons, or the youth gang problems in Montreal, or the front-line border services project.

I don't mean any disrespect to our witnesses, who I think are doing fine work and have interesting ideas. It just seems so far from the mandate of this committee, and so far removed from actually talking about the national crime prevention strategy, that it's sometimes difficult.

Having said that, I do have a couple of questions to ask.

We had as a previous witness Elizabeth Lower-Basch from the Center for Law and Social Policy in Washington, D.C. She talked about SIBs and some of the other ideas that you are bringing forward. She said, as I understood her conclusion, that these projects are inherently more expensive than the government doing this work directly because they involve creating another infrastructure. Most of them involve some kind of profit to be paid back to the investors. She finished by saying that if it's the only way you can get more money for crime prevention, they may be good ideas, but they are inherently more expensive and less accountable than the government doing the crime prevention work directly.

I wondered what your response to that would be.

4:50 p.m.

Co-Founder and Partner, Purpose Capital

Norm Tasevski

I would make a couple of points on that.

When you look at certain mechanisms in social finance, and the type of structures you might be looking to consider, what you're trying to do is to see what they are complementing or replacing. A social finance mechanism like a SIB is not a replacement for another investment opportunity.

You have granting programs. When you look at it from an investment perspective, a grant is essentially a 100% loss. When you as a government or a foundation issue a grant, you are not expecting any of that money back. The idea is that you're hoping that social good will come out of the use of that grant. Impact investing is trying to change that mentality. Even if a social finance mechanism costs a little bit more, you have to consider what the alternative of issuing just the grants would actually result in from a cost perspective. That's one thing to note.

The other thing to note with models like SIBs is that the way government finances projects today, often it's an upfront investment by government. The way SIBs work is that they're actually investments by a second group, such as a community foundation. I think the thought that private individuals are trying to take advantage of a system of social finance is probably the wrong way of thinking about it. Oftentimes you have large family foundations that want to do good. They're looking to create innovative ways of placing their capital. But it's an injection of outside capital. It's new capital. In some cases for SIBs, governments invest nothing in the project. You're actually complementing whatever other government financing mechanisms are out there.

I don't know if that fully responds to the question. For me, it's simply one additional tool in the tool kit that you can consider.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

You're saying if the government works through a grant it gets nothing back, but it does get something back. It gets the lower crime rate, or it gets the social benefits from that.

4:55 p.m.

Co-Founder and Partner, Purpose Capital

Norm Tasevski

You get the same thing with social finance, so—