Evidence of meeting #30 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Margaret Shaw  Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual
Jacqueline Biollo  Strategic Coordinator, Office of Strategy Management, Edmonton Police Service
Kevin McNichol  Executive Director, HomeFront Society for the Prevention of Domestic Violence

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Colleagues, welcome to the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, meeting 30.

Today we're following up on our study on social financing. We have two sessions with witnesses. The first, from 3:30 to 4:30, we're a little bit late starting, and the second one is from 4:30 to 5:30.

First of all, let me apologize to our witness for being a little bit tardy. We got caught up in votes. That is one of the inevitabilities, occasionally, of the committee structure for time.

For our first hour, let me welcome on behalf of all the committee Ms. Margaret Shaw. She is formerly the director of analysis and exchange for the International Centre for the Prevention of Crime.

Ms. Shaw, you're allowed up to 10 minutes for a presentation, whatever you're comfortable with, and then we will open the floor to questions.

You have the floor.

3:35 p.m.

Dr. Margaret Shaw Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

ôThank you very much.

Thank you very much for the invitation to come here. I hope I can be of assistance in your discussions. It's quite like coming in from outer space, not knowing too much about what you talked about before.

I want to touch on three things in my brief 10 minutes: first, to outline some of the main parameters and developments in crime prevention as it's evolving; second, to touch on issues of project implementation and evaluation; and third, to look at some of the challenges that those problems of implementation and evaluation pose for any policy development in the area of crime prevention and criminal justice that are relevant to the topic of social finance.

To give you a very brief account of my own background, I'm a sociologist and a criminologist with experience in the United Kingdom and Canada. Before coming to Canada, I worked for over 20 years in the Home Office in the research and planning unit of the crime policy planning unit. I carried out a number of studies there with regard to parental supervision, youth court sentencing, and particularly prisons, crime prevention, and prison rehabilitation. That included a random controlled trial of a prison rehabilitation program, which I'll come to later on.

In Canada I've undertaken quite a number of research projects for the federal government over the years, particularly on women's offending and women's prisons, including for the Task Force on Federally Sentenced Women, on issues of restorative justice and policing and evaluation and trafficking.

I taught criminology at the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at Concordia for 10 years, until I joined the International Centre for the Prevention of Crime in 1999. After 13 years I left the centre to have a little bit more free time, but I continued to work on issues of crime prevention in Canada and elsewhere. I am currently working as a consultant to ICPC for a specific project, which has made some constraints on me being able to give you fuller information today, or beforehand.

ICPC covers a huge range of things. I've covered many of those over the 13 years, from schools and women to hate crime and the role of local governments. I should stress that what I'm talking about here is on the basis of my experience and not on behalf of the centre. I should also make it clear that my experience in relation to crime prevention is the area that I'm talking about. I'm not an expert on social finance, although I have tried to become acquainted with some of the recent developments.

ICPC itself is a quite unique centre. It's the only international organization in the world concerned with crime prevention, founded by the governments of Canada, France, and Quebec in 1994, and wonderfully supported by the Government of Canada and its other governments. We can talk about ICPC, if you prefer, later on.

Much of ICPC's work is concerned with the crucial role of government in enabling and supporting the development of well-planned and strategic crime prevention, both policies and programs, that prevent harm and promote safe and healthy communities—and that save a great deal of money in the process.

Crime prevention, when I first became aware of it in the United Kingdom, was a task that was undertaken by beat police officers. It was primarily concerned with encouraging people to lock their doors and their car doors, and to lock up their bicycles. The standard joke in a police station for the crime prevention officer was, “So how many crimes did you prevent today?”

Since that time, crime prevention has undergone an extraordinary evolution in terms of its coverage in the space of some 30 or more years. It's become an international movement now. It is supported by two sets of United Nations guidelines, which set out the components for effective prevention and the principles on which they should be based.

Like Canada, many other countries around the world now have national crime prevention strategies and they fund projects on the ground. Institutions like the World Bank, the Inter-American Development Bank, the World Health Organization, UN-Habitat, UNDP, UN Women, UNODC—all of them now support the development of local citizen safety and security strategies, which are based on very similar principles for preventing and reducing the incidence of crime and violence.

It's now recognized, based on many years of experience and research, that crime prevention covers a wide range of approaches. It's not one particular thing you do.

There are four main types of approach. Social and educational approaches are a very big area that includes early intervention projects that work with families, children, schools. It can be targeted to particularly high-risk areas, or parents and families at high risk, or children at high risk, such as young people in gangs.

Secondly, there is community or locally based crime prevention, which works not so much with families and individuals as with communities and areas. They engage local communities, the residents, the businesses, and the local services, to work together to resolve local problems. Quite often it can include communities that are experiencing a lot of economic and social problems.

The third group includes a range of situational and environmental approaches, which focus on things that encourage offending and the opportunities offered by nobody being around, no street lighting, or poorly designed parks and buildings. Situational crime prevention is intent on reducing the rewards and the provocations for offenders, and making it much riskier for offenders to commit crimes.

Finally, the fourth approach to crime prevention is reintegration programs. These are programs that work with individuals, or groups with children, young people with adults, to help them reintegrate into society and into their communities when they are released from institutions or from care.

Projects and policies can be universal to everybody, or they can be targeted to particular groups who are at high risk, such as young people or elderly residents in an area.

There are now many strong evaluations of effective programs, and we know a great deal more about what seems to work. There are a lot of demonstrations of the cost-effectiveness and cost benefits of reducing the future criminal justice, social, and family costs that would be incurred if somebody became involved in a life of crime. Crime prevention practice and knowledge continues to evolve all the time, and there are a lot more things coming out.

Looking at the implementation and evaluation of crime prevention projects, there's a very active community of researchers and practitioners and experts working in this field, and it mirrors the evolution of prevention. Policy-makers want to know the best and most effective approaches, so they can use their resources wisely. There's long been an emphasis on finding what works. This has come to dominate crime prevention at various times, particularly in the United Kingdom in the 1990s. The “what works” phenomenon was very strong under Tony Blair's government.

On the basis of a number of successful pilot projects, many researchers have said that they know what works to reduce crime. The government listened to them and put a very large amount of money, something in the region of 550 million pounds, into the crime reduction program, for a series of programs to reduce residential burglary, truancy, theft around schools and schoolchildren, and violence against women, in some other targeted programs.

The most significant lesson from that very big program was that the implementation of projects—how they were set up, who they worked with, and who ran them—were just as important as the projects themselves. In other words, it was about the kind of thing that you were doing with people. What they discovered was that the people conducting the projects funded by the Home Office didn't have the knowledge and skills necessary to collect the right data, to run the project properly, to target the right people, to undertake the evaluation. It became quite a large exercise in the implementation failure of programs, in spite of the fact that they had started with programs that worked. That lesson has been taken to heart by many crime prevention specialists and governments since then.

The second issue around the implementation of crime prevention is the issue of evaluation itself. I'm sure that you've heard quite a lot about this already. There are researchers—and there are many different schools of belief—who have established a gold standard for evaluating whether a project has actually brought about the kinds of changes that you anticipate. This recommends the use of random controlled trials or quasi-experimental trials, where you have a control group and an experimental group and you measure the progress of both as you would in a medical trial.

Some types of crime prevention are much easier to evaluate than others, and you can use those kinds of trials very easily. So if you want to look at the effects of improved street lighting on rates of sexual assault or burglary or theft in an area, it's relatively easy and quick to look and see whether the street lighting seems to have made a difference. But evaluating the effects of a series of interventions in a neighbourhood—a kind of community and local crime prevention approach that might make improvements to public spaces, develop a youth club, and provide support to families or single parents—is likely to be more difficult and may take a much longer time to show some clear results.

Policy-makers have understandably been very interested in funding evaluated projects that have repeatedly shown success in reducing crime, and there's a number of blueprint programs that I know you've heard about already, which have been developed in countries including Canada. They pay particular attention to the kinds of problems the British experienced, which were the attention to implementation of the project and to careful control, making sure the project was delivered exactly as it was designed to be delivered. This includes the kinds of cognitive skills programs developed and used by the Correctional Service of Canada and the current National Crime Prevention Centre projects on youth at risk.

But we've also learned over the years that the context in which a project takes place is extremely important. Sometimes it's when you go abroad and look at what it means to implement these projects in South Africa or in Brazil that you begin to understand some of these difficulties—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Ms. Shaw, could you just wrap up in a little bit, please? Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

Dr. Margaret Shaw

Yes, okay.

So you need flexibility in developing the project to adapt to the particular place you're looking at. We also know that you need to have new ideas and innovation. You cannot just do what you know has worked, because that's actually looking backwards all the time and not looking forwards in terms of what the needs might be for the future. So the challenges and the opportunities in relation to social finance, it seems to me, are very pertinent issues—the implementation and evaluation of projects—and there's a big tension between wanting to do something you know has worked and something that is new and innovative. This seems to me to be quite a problem for the area of social finance that focuses a lot on innovation.

What you need to make sure is that, if you do have innovative projects as well as tested and tried ones, you evaluate them well and you go beyond just a pilot. There is a lot of experience from the project in which I was involved in Britain at the end of the 1960s, beginning of the 1970s, which produced very successful findings, very similar to the Peterborough project in the U.K. But when an attempt was made to replicate it in other prisons, they did not get the same results. So there is always this problem that pilot projects tend to be more successful than projects that are scaled up, and I think that is an issue in this area.

So I think that in a sense, for the development of social finance, it's an area that has many histories in crime prevention. Public-private partnerships, corporate social responsibility, social responsibility are also aspects of work in which crime prevention has been very interested, and the National Crime Prevention Centre believed in the business of the private sector being involved in crime prevention right from the beginning. That is part of the international guidelines on crime prevention, that everybody in a community—private sector, business sector, civil society, NGOs, residents—all have a part to play, as well as institutions and services.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

That is fine. Ms. Shaw, thank you very much for giving us a little touch of not only your history but certainly your knowledge on the topic.

We will now go to our rounds of questioning.

We will start off with Mr. Richards for seven minutes, please.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Thank you, Ms. Shaw, for being here with us today.

I understand that you were commissioned by our government's National Crime Prevention Centre to do a study on international practices, and in that you briefly touched on a number of examples of some programming from around the world. That's obviously important. Information-sharing is something that's very important, and certainly we want to thank you for your work on that, without question.

Now you also mentioned, of course, that you do have connections with a group that's currently providing some of the crime prevention programming that is in existence. I think I heard you say that. Did I understand that correctly?

3:50 p.m.

Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

Dr. Margaret Shaw

I'm not actively working in any project at the moment. I'm acting on a contract basis with the international centre in Montreal on a particular project, but it's the development of a report.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Okay.

Given that connection, would you think you personally have any kind of a vested interest in the status quo in terms of the way that grants and contributions currently exist?

3:50 p.m.

Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

Dr. Margaret Shaw

You're talking about the status quo in Canada?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

That's correct.

3:50 p.m.

Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

Dr. Margaret Shaw

I'm not sure whether I have a vested interest. I'm an independent researcher, if you like.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Okay.

3:50 p.m.

Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

Dr. Margaret Shaw

I've always been interested in crime and in crime prevention and in how we can produce better policies.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Okay.

3:50 p.m.

Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

Dr. Margaret Shaw

I find the current programs that are being evaluated extremely interesting, and it would be very good to see, when they all come to fruition, what the results have been in many of those studies.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Okay.

I think you mentioned that you were involved with a project in Great Britain back a number of years ago. Have you, in fact, studied any of these various models in great depth? I know you mentioned some of the work you've been involved with, but have you studied the idea of social finance as compared to the others in any kind of depth?

3:50 p.m.

Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

Dr. Margaret Shaw

No. As I said at the beginning, this is an area that is relatively new to me, and I haven't had much time to look at it. I have looked at what I could find on the Peterborough example, and there's a youth justice reinvestment pathfinders project and a few others.

The problem is, certainly in the case of those in the U.K. and I think also in the States, that none of them have yet come to fruition. One of the issues with the Peterborough project is that at the end of April this year, the government changed the funding mechanism and said it won't fund the third year of that project, which is quite interesting. They've had two years of the social.... Two cohorts of people have come out of Peterborough Prison and done well, but for the third thousand men, the funding will not be the same as it was. It won't be a social impact bond procedure.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Okay.

I think from what you've said now and certainly from what I heard in your presentation, you seem to be of the view that when we're looking at funding models and types of approaches, it's always important to see something through and determine that it is in fact working as you go forward. That seems to be a pretty fair condition of what you're looking at.

3:55 p.m.

Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

Dr. Margaret Shaw

Yes. I think there are a lot of projects that work extremely well. There's always the challenge of repeating that and scaling up a project.

June 12th, 2014 / 3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Okay.

Certainly, from what I've heard through the course of this study and otherwise, I'm personally of the view that there are a number of reasons why we could and should move towards social finance types of models. I'll quickly focus on five of them, and I'd like to ask for your thoughts.

First, I think it can unleash new and additional capital in the social service area. Second, I think that capital has the ability to be recycled over and over as opposed to the current grant and contribution process that puts the money out the door once but doesn't create a sustainable funding model for organizations. Third, it can allow innovation to flourish. Many witnesses have come before us and told us that through these models there's more flexibility once the program has begun, because it's focused more on impact than on outcomes and not so much on just the process or just how many participants were involved. Fourth, there's the idea of cross-sector collaboration, which I think happens to some extent currently, but, we've been told, that could certainly expand under this model. Last but certainly not least, there's a strong focus on measuring the impact and the outcomes in a more concrete way, and I think that is in line with what you've indicated it's important that we do. We've certainly heard from some of the officials we've had here that much of the evaluation currently being done is being done by surveying participants on their views on the program rather than through concrete metrics. In my view, that's something that needs to be improved.

I think, certainly, the last couple of factors I mentioned were things you seemed to indicate were important, and you mentioned those factors in your report.

Would you agree with these five benefits? Would you see them as being beneficial and could you see the idea of social finance models based on those benefits being helpful towards achieving those kinds of benefits?

3:55 p.m.

Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

Dr. Margaret Shaw

I think this is what makes it a very interesting area, that there are all of these issues. From years of experience in doing research as well as evaluating it, I think it's always difficult to get funding. If there is another source of funding, it's very useful. If you can engage corporations, foundations, and other people who have the money to take part in this social experiment, if you like, I think this is an extremely valuable thing to do. Also, it has been an element of the development of crime prevention anyway.

In terms of flexibility, I think it's very interesting that many of the strong “what works” programs had very rigid structures. The cognitive skills program, for example, is a very formalized program. In a way, maybe we're moving back to saying that you can try what you like as long as you reduce the rates of problems—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Mr. Richards, your time is up.

3:55 p.m.

Former Director of Analysis and Exchange, International Centre for the Prevention of Crime, As an Individual

Dr. Margaret Shaw

—but I think you still must have a very clear and logical explanation, a theory, behind what you're doing. It can't just be a hunch. It can't just be something nice to do with people. It has to be something that is based on an understanding of the evidence of what's gone on before. I personally think there is room for flexibility, but it doesn't mean that it's open to anything.

I had a colleague years ago in the Home Office who said that there are never any new programs; they're just reformulated. Certainly, the Peterborough program is very similar to the one in the early 1970s that I was involved in. We know that people need things coming out of prison: housing, jobs, and supports. These are very clear, practical things that are needed. In that sense, the kinds of programs in crime prevention that you're involved in are quite similar, but you may need new energy, new money, new enthusiasm, and a different branding. These are some of the things that will lift a project up and provide more results.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Ms. Shaw.

Mr. Garrison, please.

4 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Dr. Shaw, for being with us today. As I mentioned to you earlier, I've had the privilege of hearing you speak at an international conference. In contrast to maybe some of the earlier remarks of Mr. Richards, I think what we're looking for, and which you've done a good job of today, is that depth of experience in evaluating new programs in crime prevention. I think you've had some very interesting things to say here.

I want to go back to a couple of those things. You talked about the four approaches generally that we could work on in crime prevention. My understanding of what you're saying is that these aren't in any kind of hierarchy and that all of these are things that work. What I would ask you is, do you think we've had too much emphasis or too little emphasis on any of these in recent times in crime prevention? In other words, has there been a good balance between them, or do you see a lack of balance in the approaches being used?