Evidence of meeting #7 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was iio.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp
Thank you very much, Madam Doré Lefebvre.
Mr. Payne, do you have a question of the witness?
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for coming to our committee today. Even if it is by video, it's nice to have you here.
You talked about particular cases where you've had three different bodies involved in an ongoing investigation. To me, that seems to add some level of confusion about who is doing what, and for what part of the investigation. Is there overlap when you have one of those cases? Are you working closely to make sure that doesn't happen? What I see, just in appearances, is that having three different bodies looking at an investigation certainly adds to the cost of policing, and in particular with that incident. Maybe you could help us out there.
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Public Accountability, Independent Investigations Office of British Columbia
We're dealing with the criminal investigation into the acts of the affected person, for example, the gentleman with the knife at the SkyTrain station, prior to the police incident. That is done by the police office of jurisdiction, say the RCMP. We're looking at the conduct from the time the officer attended the SkyTrain and made the decision to shoot the individual. We're looking at the potential for criminality in that event.
In some of our cases there is also a conduct investigation. That is done by the CPC or the Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner, which look specifically at the officer's conduct. There is one set of evidence shared by the three groups of investigative bodies. There are very clear lines as to where one begins and another ends. There is cooperation with regard to sharing file materials so that interviews are not duplicated.
I'm not suggesting there aren't going to be moments in which there is duplication, but for the most part we work very hard to eliminate that. It's not good for police officers, and it's not good for witnesses or for taxpayers.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
It's helpful to have a clearer understanding of that.
You did talk about E Division of the RCMP. I don't know how that is affected in B.C. and whether it is under provincial jurisdiction or federal jurisdiction. Obviously the RCMP is federal. However, in a lot of the provinces like Alberta we do have a number of RCMP services in some of our communities as well as in some of the rural areas. So I'm not sure if that E Division in particular is under the jurisdiction of the province or of some of the communities.
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Public Accountability, Independent Investigations Office of British Columbia
It's complicated. We have that same combination here in British Columbia. I would say that right now we are 50% municipal policing and 50% RCMP. Regardless of how the contract is constructed for RCMP services, we have received nothing but cooperation from the RCMP in B.C.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
The other incident I wanted to talk about was the Robert Dziekanski issue. Were there two separate investigations going on for this particular case, looking at the conduct of the officers?
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Public Accountability, Independent Investigations Office of British Columbia
That certainly was before my time. Those inquiries took place more historically than when the IIO became operational. Our focus was on the public inquiry that took place and that led to the recommendation and creation of the office.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
So that was after the fact then.
Just in terms of the conduct, we did talk about how the bodies are working together. I see that as certainly very positive. You also talked briefly about some of the stakeholders you have and some of the comments they made and suggestions for improvement. Were there other suggestions for improvement of the IIO that were given to you? What were they? What have you done around those types of suggestions?
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Public Accountability, Independent Investigations Office of British Columbia
I think it's important for the committee to know that our group of stakeholders was involved prior to our opening the door. They were part of the development of the MOU, so we ensured that the MOU met the needs of first nations leadership and first nations governance in B.C. As well, the BC Civil Liberties Association looked at the MOU. We have an external stakeholder advisory group made up of a diverse group of stakeholders that include Linda Bush, the mother of Ian Bush, who died in an officer-involved shooting; Pivot; and the BC Civil Liberties Association.
There are ongoing suggestions. For example, our website has a chart that talks about the status of case completion. That came from a recommendation by a community member. The position was that B.C. taxpayers wanted to know how well we were doing. We had recommendations from people around our hiring practices from first nations groups. We incorporated those recommendations into our hiring practices.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp
Fine. Thank you very much. Of course if you have additional information it can come around in the next line of questioning.
Thank you, Ms. Kilpatrick.
We will now go to Mr. Garrison, please, for five minutes.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
A lot of members are asking about duplication, so I want to go back on this question of duplication and ask you to be a little more clear. What I've heard you saying is that you've tried to eliminate duplication of some of the aspects of investigations, but in fact the parallel and concurrent investigations are really quite necessary because they have different public purposes. Can you just run through those again? I don't want us to get hung up on the idea that because more than one investigation exists, one of them is not necessary.
11:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Public Accountability, Independent Investigations Office of British Columbia
Let's say there's a motor vehicle crash, the affected person flees from a roadblock, there's a pursuit, there's a crash, and someone dies. The RCMP are responsible for the investigation involving the affected person who was driving and who fled. The IIO is responsible for investigating whether or not the officer who initiated the pursuit committed an offence.
At the end of those two processes, the CPC—the commission for police complaints, because this is RCMP—is responsible for looking at whether or not the policies, the training, and the conduct of the officer in conducting a pursuit were appropriate.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
So each of those has a legitimate public purpose. What you've been saying to us is that there are some ways to be more efficient about the way each of those is conducted, by cooperating over not repeating interviews and those kinds of things, but each of these are still very much necessary to achieve a different public purpose.
11:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Public Accountability, Independent Investigations Office of British Columbia
Correct.
November 26th, 2013 / 11:50 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
I want to go back to a question that Madame Doré Lefebvre raised with you. I don't think we got a full answer for that, and I think it's probably because federally we lack the same context in discussing your office.
That is the question of increasing public confidence overall in policing. You talked mostly about confidence in your office, but I think what members of the committee may be missing is that there was a crisis in public confidence resulting from the perception that police investigating themselves might create problems in British Columbia.
Can you just comment a bit on whether your office is really helping to address that public confidence question?
11:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Public Accountability, Independent Investigations Office of British Columbia
The best way for me to answer that is to talk about our public reporting.
At the end of an IIO investigation, if a case is not going to crown, there's a very comprehensive public report that talks about the circumstances that led to the event, and the chief civilian director's findings, and so on. The public, therefore, is able to see what the police officer did leading up to the incident and the outcome.
For the most part, I believe officers have been cleared of any wrongdoing. By way of that, I believe that the public's level of confidence is going to increase.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
How about confidence in terms of those who actually do the policing? Quite often we're worried about public confidence in the police, but there's also the necessity that the people who are serving feel they're being fairly treated in these investigations.
11:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Public Accountability, Independent Investigations Office of British Columbia
I think when we began there was healthy skepticism. The feedback we get now, for the most part, is positive.
We even have situations where, when the IIO doesn't take a case on, police services say, “Please take it on, because I'm in a small community, and if you take it on you'll show the people that in fact I was doing my job and it was an unfortunate outcome.”
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
I think that's a very positive example that you're giving of the value of having an office like yours.
One of the other things you said in response to Madame Doré Lefebvre was that you thought Quebec was looking at this. My understanding is that it's really just Ontario, British Columbia, and Alberta that currently have similar offices. Is that correct?
11:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Public Accountability, Independent Investigations Office of British Columbia
It's B.C., Alberta, Ontario, Manitoba, and Nova Scotia. I believe Quebec is next in line.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
Okay. Thank you very much.
That concludes my questions.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to go back to this duplication of investigation. And I thank you for the clarification when you gave the example of a pursuit in a car crash when someone dies.
Earlier in your testimony, though, you indicated with regard to the information you have that you actually share that file with other investigations that are going on. I'm just trying to pinpoint exactly what is in your file that, when you share it, would prevent another investigative body from having to do the same set of investigative steps or processes. It's great to share the file, but if we're not reducing the duplication....
I'm trying to figure out what exactly in your investigation would be taken at face value and would not require someone else to investigate the exact same incident in that perspective.