Evidence of meeting #1 for Special Committee on Violence Against Indigenous Women in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was community.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michèle Audette  President, Native Women's Association of Canada
Burma Bushie  Co-Founder, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation
Robyn Hall  Co-Director, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

November 21st, 2013 / 7 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Thank you, Michèle.

I guess I'm almost.... I don't want it to be on a shelf either, and I think all of us would like to find some answers, but I've been on committees before and I've heard all the good words, and I can understand your frustration. I think we all feel the same thing, but we have to work within the system that we have, unfortunately. Maybe at the end of the day one of the recommendations goes back to calling for a public inquiry, but that doesn't mean that it's going to happen either, and that's part of the frustration.

What happened to your community happened to Canadians. It would never have been quiet, and we all know that...it was exactly because it was aboriginal women. The work that should have been done, the justice that should have been done, wasn't there, but I'm here tonight with the others and trying to move it forward, and we can't do that without your help.

I guess I'm going to say to the committee in all sincerity, why is it so difficult to have NWAC at the table with us? I think we all care about this issue. We all know that it's going to be a difficult couple of months and we're not going to be able to come up with recommendations that are going to be able to solve all these problems. But at least if Michèle is prepared to come to the table with us and work with us, I'd have much more faith that at the end of the day we're really going to accomplish something.

We cannot let this community down again. We just can't do that. Otherwise, it really should be a pox on all of our houses, and that has nothing to do with politics. There has to be justice somehow, and right now the only vehicle on the table is this committee. If we could have NWAC at the table, I think it would build the committee's credibility and it would help all of us achieve some goals that we want to see at the end of the day, whatever that is.

Thank you.

7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Stella Ambler

Thank you, Ms. Sgro.

Michèle, thank you so much for being with us. We do appreciate your frank comments. I'm sure there will be a lot of post-meeting discussion about them. Thank you for speaking to us tonight and for taking the time. I'm sure it wasn't easy for you to round up the girls and set all of this up, so we do appreciate the effort. We thank you and we'll be in touch.

We're going to suspend for just a couple of minutes to switch witnesses.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Stella Ambler

Welcome back to the meeting.

Welcome to our guests, our witnesses. I believe we have Ms. Bushie and Ms. Hall, Robyn.

Welcome to our committee. My name is Stella Ambler. I'm the chair of the committee.

It's so nice to have you here with us today. Thank you for being here. I'm sorry we were a little late getting started. We have approximately just over 45 minutes. Please feel free to speak for upwards of 10 minutes, and then we'll have a little question and answer afterwards until 8 p.m.

Thank you again and welcome to our meeting. We look forward to getting your input.

Please go ahead.

7:10 p.m.

Burma Bushie Co-Founder, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

My name is Burma Bushie. Thank you for your invitation. Both Robyn and I are happy to be here to share the work that we've done in our community in the last 30 years. Our vision has never changed right from day one as aboriginal women: we have a vision that we have been working on all along. Basically, what the vision entails is that one day aboriginal women will reclaim their place of honour within our society. We come from a matriarchal society, and part of our struggle is to find our way back to what was once a very strong society. Today we do have a lot of women who are taking on the leadership roles in the community and developing programs, and not only programs but a lot of new initiatives that take us back to who we are as Anishinabe women. That has always remained constant in our work.

We realize that we have many, many years of colonization and all the other problems we've had to live through. So we just want to start off by saying that the vision is still there, that we are still working on it, and we are moving forward.

Do you have anything to add?

7:10 p.m.

Robyn Hall Co-Director, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

In our community, the programs we have are not just in one stream. It's a collective vision we have.

We also take a holistic approach within the community, in which we involve the school, the justice programs, and the health programs, because we believe that in order to be holistically healthy, we have to encompass everything, whether that be spiritual, physical, mental, emotional—all of that.

We do that through our work. It is both preventive and restorative. We have many different avenues.

In preparing for today, we tried to figure out which avenue to focus on. For the purpose of this meeting, it is to look at the overall goal of what we want to accomplish. What the committee seems to be looking for in terms of recommendations is to see how we can get from where we are today to a place of health and wellness for all aboriginal women and aboriginals in Canada.

We would like to open it up for questions you may have of us and the work we do, where we could assist in any way.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Stella Ambler

Thank you for those opening comments.

We appreciate it. It's always nice to have a little extra time for questions. We appreciate that as well.

Thank you.

We're going to start with Ms. Crowder.

7:15 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My name is Jean Crowder, and I'm the aboriginal affairs critic for the NDP and the vice-chair of this committee.

Thank you for coming before the committee today and for taking the time.

I have a couple of questions. I found a report that was done back in 2001, a cost-benefit analysis on the programs run by your community. I want to put a couple of things on record about the effectiveness of your program. One was that for every dollar the provincial government has spent on the CHCH program, it would have had to spend $3.75 for pre-incarceration costs, that is, prison and probation costs. For every dollar the federal government has spent on that program, they would have had to spend between $2.46 and $12.15 on incarceration and parole costs. They estimated that this program saved millions of dollars in incarceration costs. The evaluation also indicated that the recidivism rates went way down. They said that in the 10 years they examined, only two clients reoffended.

Further on in the report, they talked about significant signs in overall health and well-being for the community, which included improved holistic health of children, more people completing their education, parenting skills, empowerment of the community, and so on.

Can you talk to me about the importance of long-term, continued funding for these kinds of prevention and restorative justice programs?

7:15 p.m.

Co-Founder, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

Burma Bushie

Back in 1991, when the study on the cost analysis was done—right about that time, in the late 1980s—we started developing our data for the cases we were processing in court. We had quite a database to work with when the study started.

In the beginning the provincial government gave us $120,000. The federal government matched that figure, so since 1991, our budget has been $240,000. I don't have the latest stats, but I know at the time we had processed 86 cases in provincial court. Some of those would have been federal cases.

Just based on that, there's your answer. We don't require jails. We don't require treatment centres. Those are expenses that are aside from what we offer. Anywhere else you would be looking at those additional expenses.

So yes, very much so, we have been saving the country millions of dollars. We have shown, just by the recidivism rate, what it is we are doing right. We are touching people in ways that help them make those lifetime changes.

We have been asking the federal government and the provincial government for additional funding, but I guess they are not seeing or hearing what we have done in the last 20 or 30 years. I very much hope there is more funding coming our way.

We are in a position to be training other first nations that could come to our community and get the training we've developed. We did develop the training ourselves, because at the time there was no training in Manitoba to deal with offenders of any kind.

I hope that is one of the things that come out of this committee. Thank you.

7:20 p.m.

Co-Director, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

Robyn Hall

When you look at incarcerating a male, I believe the average amount is $118,000. For the program we have, as she stated, our budget is $240,000. We not only work with the offenders but also provide victim services. We also provide family services. We also provide services for elders.

We encompass all of those programs into that one. It's not just servicing that one person. It's actually giving service to the entire family. As I'm sure you're aware, in aboriginal communities often the families are very large and significantly widespread throughout the community.

At one time, when we received money from the healing foundation, we increased our programming to encompass more family-based programs. We brought in our land-based programs, as well as different ceremonies, and just increased it in that way. Then when the funding was cut, we didn't want to stop that. We started to look for alternative ways to fund it, which was a struggle. Obviously we lost a great deal of funding at that time. We tried to incorporate it into our health programs and into our school. A lot of times funding is limited. The parameters are set by someone outside the community, so you can only spend it in this silo.

At times, for sure, it's difficult for us to function within the budgetary guidelines of government.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Stella Ambler

Thank you.

Over to you, Ms. Truppe.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Susan Truppe Conservative London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank you both for your presentation today.

I'm the Parliamentary Secretary for Status of Women, so I do have a couple of questions about some of the work your group has done. Before I do that, I just want to clarify, are you still getting the funding, the $120,000 each from the province and from the federal government, on an annual basis?

7:20 p.m.

Co-Director, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

7:20 p.m.

Co-Founder, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Susan Truppe Conservative London North Centre, ON

Thank you.

I understand, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that when the program started in the 1980s, it was started specifically for sexual abuse. What did you do back then that was specific to sexual abuse, and what are you doing now? I know you do a great job with the work you're doing.

7:20 p.m.

Co-Founder, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

Burma Bushie

We started with sexual abuse in our community because that was one of the root causes of the chaos we were seeing on a daily basis. We certainly had no intention of starting from there; however, we couldn't avoid it.

Once we made the decision to deal with sexual abuse, we then developed a process that we called a community approach. That community approach takes in the RCMP, probations, and justice people, such as prosecutors, defence lawyers, and judges.

Once we got into that arena, there were timeframes that we were presented with. For example, once we became engaged with a family, how were we going to make sure that we remained connected with the family until the justice piece was finished? That also included child and family services, because for a lot of the children who were disclosing, automatically child and family services became one of the programs. We had to make sure that we were working within their parameters of making sure the children were safe.

When we first started the process, we had to develop it from the Anishinabe philosophy and values. When we developed our assessment tools, we based them on the four dimensions of a person. They all have to be in balance.

For example, if the offender came in with addiction problems, then the first thing we had to do was to make sure that person cleaned that part of his or her life. Sometimes that required residential care. Sometimes we had to develop a community process for the person rather than have them go to treatment. The process also had to take in individuals, families, the community, and the nation. These were the levels we looked at for assessment.

We also used the concept of circles for the ongoing work that had to be done. That involved individual circles. Next were circles with the whole family—the victim and the whole family or the offender and the whole family. The third type of circle involved the victim and the offender coming together.

We use traditional ways of healing, such as sweat lodges. In the beginning, sweat lodges were all we had, but in the years since, we've brought a couple of other lodges back to our community—the fasting lodge and the moon lodge.

So we had all these traditional ways of working with individuals and families, but we also had to use contemporary ways, including seeing therapists for one-on-one counselling, one-on-one therapy, or group therapy. Years later we also were able to incorporate on-the-land types of prevention programs and other types of therapies that were more in line with our culture.

Those were the ways we worked with people in the beginning. Then about half-way into our work with the justice program we brought in the judge, the crown, the defence, and the RCMP. We set up a sentencing circle, which is exactly the same as a court trial and court, except that all the evidence is pre-recorded and reports have been distributed to all the key people, and everybody is on board in terms of what the recommendations are asking for.

We have a position paper on incarceration because of our observations of what happens to people when they are gone away to jail. Basically everybody has a time-out kind of situation, because the victim and the families that are left behind and the community that is left behind cannot really do very much. The key disrupter of the whole family system is gone to jail for maybe 18 months, and that person is sitting over there. There's a lot of work that person has to do back home. There's a lot of restitution and a lot of repairs that have to be made to victims and the families.

So that's the whole intent of the community approach. It's the offender who has done wrong and it's the offender who has to make right all the wrong he has caused and all the harm he has caused. Without that person—

7:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Stella Ambler

Sorry, finish up your thought there, and then I'm going to give Ms. Sgro an opportunity.

7:30 p.m.

Co-Founder, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

Burma Bushie

After the sentencing circle, there is a probation period for another three years and the same kind of work continues for the next three years. At the end of that time, there's a giveaway ceremony that the offender sets up for the victim.

Those are the key pieces of how the community approach works.

7:30 p.m.

Conservative

Susan Truppe Conservative London North Centre, ON

Thank you very much. You're doing a great job there.

7:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Stella Ambler

Thank you.

I will turn it over to you.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Thank you very much, and congratulations on the restorative justice program. I'm a big supporter of these programs and I really applaud the work that you and others are doing.

I want to ask you about what I understand the focus of the work of this committee to be, which is the amount of violence and the missing and murdered indigenous women. What can this committee recommend through the government of the day to reduce the violence that continues among women in your community in particular? Do you have any suggestions on how we could better protect many of the women in your community? What would you like to see done?

7:30 p.m.

Co-Founder, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

Burma Bushie

One of the key areas we've worked with over the years is the whole attitude of my community. There was a time when it was okay for women to be treated that way, to be physically and sexually abused and all that comes with that. My community developed the attitude that women were to blame.

That's one of the key areas that every community has to work on. It's a crime against women to use power over them; it's not right. As women in our communities, we have a lead role in making sure that attitudes change, and that requires a lot of prevention programs, a lot of education, but it's coming from us, the women in the community.

If anything is to change, it's going to be done by the women in each community, and if we could somehow reach each other some way, like having a crisis line to each community, where women are supporting each other, because I think our communities are almost the same across the board....

7:35 p.m.

Co-Director, Community Holistic Circle Healing, Hollow Water First Nation

Robyn Hall

To add to that, one of the things we've found over the years as a great prevention tool, and it starts in infancy, is reclaiming our identity: our ceremonies, our language, our land-based education. That's where the basis of our culture is and it's who we are.

For women who are addicted or who find themselves in violent situations, that's a symptom of something in their past. It's been broken; it's been abused.

By finding our identity, who we are and where we belong, and the roles of the women in our community, the roles of men, the roles of elders and children...by restoring those roles, aboriginal communities will flourish. We've begun to start in infancy, right through to elders. We've been on that track for the last 30 years.

I'm in my late thirties, so I came from the generation when it started. I consider myself second generation in this process. My identity as an aboriginal woman has grown tremendously, compared to the women in the early eighties, the way I understand my culture, for example. For that to be the next step we take in first nations country is to be able to bring that back. It's what we lost. Nobody is bringing it to us. That's what Burma is saying; it's about our finding it, too, and in a way it's assistance we can get from each other. But it will come from us ultimately.

The question you're asking is how can you assist us in finding that? My recommendation is to be able to help with the preventive progress and with reclaiming our identity.

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Thank you.

Do I have more time?

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Stella Ambler

I'm not tracking time, so you have another minute or two.

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Tell me about the relationship within your community when it comes to policing. I'm not sure in your area whether it's the RCMP who does the policing. What kind of a relationship do you have with them? A lot of criticism in the past has been with that relationship, as well as with difficulties in dealing with various issues.

I expect you have a very positive relationship because of your restorative justice programs. What does the rest of your community have when it comes to that partnership in policing in your community?