Evidence of meeting #27 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gba.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Committee members, we have today the Auditor General, Sheila Fraser, accompanied by Anne Marie Smith, the deputy legal adviser. That will be our first panel, from nine to ten.
Before we begin our meeting, we have with us Senator Nancy Ruth. I'd like the committee's approval to ask the senator to join us at the table.
9:05 a.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Nancy, can you join us? Thank you.
We have the Auditor General for one hour only. We are already seven minutes behind, so we need to move along.
Madam Fraser, do you have a presentation? You know the drill--for ten minutes.
Welcome, and thank you.
9:05 a.m.
Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you, Madam Chair.
We are very pleased to appear before this committee today. As you mentioned, I am accompanied by Anne Marie Smith, who is the head of our legal department. We are pleased to be here to speak to you about our role and mandate and about how we undertake our work at the Office of the Auditor General.
I'm also pleased to discuss the mandate of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development with you today. As I understand, the committee may be interested in how a similar model could be applied to gender budgets.
As many of you know already, the Auditor General is an officer of Parliament. We audit federal government operations and provide Parliament with independent information, advice, and assurance regarding the federal government's stewardship of public funds. We cannot, as an audit office, comment on policy choice. While we may comment on policy implementation in an audit, we do not comment on the policy itself. We do, however, advocate for good, sound management of a program. Madam Chair, this is key to our effectiveness. By not delving into the merits of government policy, we can maintain our independence and objectivity, and therefore our credibility.
Basically, we are in the business of legislative auditing. We conduct performance audits of federal departments and agencies, annual financial audits of the government's financial statements, and special examinations and annual financial audits of Crown corporations.
Our financial audits provide assurance that financial statements are presented fairly in accordance with Canadian generally accepted accounting principles and other relevant standards.
Our special examinations assess the management systems and practices of Crown corporations and provide opinions on whether there is reasonable assurance that there are no significant deficiencies.
Our performance audits examine whether government programs are being managed with due regard for economy, efficiency, and environmental impact. I would like to emphasize that we do not do program evaluations — that is, we do not measure the effectiveness of programs.
The results of our performance audits are presented to Parliament three or four times each year, for a total of about 30 audits or report chapters per year. Chapters may cover topics that are specific to a department or agency, for example military health care, or that are government-wide in nature, for example the use of acquisition and travel cards. Each audit is framed by audit objectives and criteria that are discussed with the departments at the beginning of the audit. Usually an audit process takes between 12 and 18 months to complete. All of our audit work is conducted in accordance with the standards set by the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants. It is guided by a rigorous methodology and quality management framework.
The Auditor General Act gives our Office the discretion to determine what areas of government to examine through performance audits. We do risk assessments of federal departments and a number of management areas (such as human resources and information technology) in order to identify the most significant topics for audit.
Since 1995, the Office has also had a specific environmental and sustainable development mandate, which was established through amendments to the Auditor General Act. The Commissioner reports to the Auditor General and leads a group of 40 auditors. Ail work conducted by the Commissioner's group is subject to the same standards as the rest of the Office.
On behalf of the Auditor General, the Commissioner reports to the House of Commons on any environmental and sustainable development matters that he considers should be brought to its attention. The Commissioner uses essentially the same process for his audits that we use for our performance audits. Again, the emphasis is on sound management of an environmental program as opposed to the merits of the policy.
The commissioner is also responsible for monitoring, auditing, and reporting publicly on the environmental petitions process and departmental sustainable development strategies. The petitions process is unique, in that Canadians can get timely answers from federal ministers on specific environmental and sustainable development issues that involve federal jurisdiction. Petitions have prompted action by federal departments and agencies, such as new environmental projects, follow-up on alleged violations, and changes or clarifications in policies and practices.
Madam Chair, this has been a very brief overview of our role and mandate, including that of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. We would be pleased to discuss these issues and answer any questions committee members may have.
Thank you.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you.
We'll go to the first round of questions.
Ms. Neville or Ms. Minna.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I'm going to be very short. I'm sharing with Ms. Neville because I know she has to go, if it's okay with you, Madam Chair.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Thank you.
Welcome to our meeting. You and I have met at different committees in the past.
I have some very specific questions in this area, because we're looking at the possibility of a commissioner for this and a piece of legislation. I want to understand the audit your office does. Is your audit specific to policy the government has already enunciated, or at least specific programs, and whether they meet the intended target and the expenditures are above board and all that stuff, but not the merits of the policy?
First of all, I see legislation legislating GBA, and then a commissioner who would ensure.... A commissioner wouldn't have that kind of overarching ability if they were under your auspices, would they? I'm just trying to understand. How does it work with the Commissioner of the Environment, for instance? How broad is it? I know you've mentioned some things. They can't comment on the government's overarching plan, whether or not it's....
9:10 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you, Chair.
As we mentioned, we cannot comment on specific policy. So we cannot say this policy is good or bad; we believe that is up to parliamentarians. We can talk about the implementation of policy. We can point to areas where there may be policy gaps.
If I take the example of the Commissioner of the Environment, if you talk about gender-based analysis, for example, I can equate that to the strategic environmental assessments. Most recently the Commissioner of the Environment did an audit to say these things weren't being done. We could probably look at their quality, but we couldn't say this program.... Once a program has been decided, if the analysis has been done and the program is decided, if people say we haven't taken that analysis into account, we can't comment on that.
I guess that's pretty much it. We can't promote.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
So if there's a piece of legislation that says GBA should be done, and the government plan doesn't have a proper GBA, can you comment on that or can you not?
9:10 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes, we can do that. We don't even need legislation. For example, the strategic environmental assessments are not a requirement under legislation; there was a cabinet directive to do them. If there is some policy in government, and it doesn't need to be in legislation, that says gender-based analysis should be done, or even quite honestly a commitment--and I read some of the testimony before this committee that would certainly seem to indicate that government officials are saying there is a commitment by government to do it--we could certainly say that government has committed to doing this. Are you actually doing it, but there is no requirement? If there is no requirement, it's difficult for us to say they haven't followed this. If they've committed to it, we could use that.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
Thank you, again, for being here today.
As you're aware, we're looking at a proposal for a commissioner. To set up a commissioner and an office takes time. You have the infrastructure in place already.
First of all, what does a good implementation plan look like for a broad-based, cross-department policy initiative?
9:15 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We have looked at this, obviously, in several areas. I would say, obviously, clarity around the objectives, clear roles and responsibilities, and someone who is held to account. Too often we see broad-based initiatives across government, but nobody is really accountable for the success of that project. It could be a central agency, it could be a department, but somebody who clearly has the responsibility and the accountability to make sure the program is implemented. Beyond that, it obviously depends on the scope.
It would require proper resourcing, proper funding, that the program be sustainable. We also like to see clear action plans with definable benchmarks along the way so you know if you're making progress. Far too often we see policies and objectives that are five or six years out with no interim steps to know if progress is being made or not.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
And does the Auditor General's office work with whoever is responsible in establishing those parameters, or do you wait until after the fact?
9:15 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We are consulted fairly regularly on implementation of programs and will give comments on them. Obviously, then, government is free to take those comments or not. We have to be careful that we don't slide over into what we call the consulting, or become involved in the management of programs, or become too close. But we do provide comments on policies, largely financial policies, internal audit, those kinds of things, that the Treasury Board would be issuing.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
Thank you.
What value would the Auditor General's department bring in doing a performance audit on gender-based analysis?
9:15 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I was obviously thinking last night, before I appeared here, what we could actually do in this area. We could look at whether government is actually doing gender-based analysis, and I guess we could look at some of the quality around that analysis.
If a policy decision is made that doesn't take that analysis into account, we obviously can't comment on the policy itself, but we could look at the departments: are they actually doing this analysis in their design of policies and programs?
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
In regard to the definition of gender-based analysis, how would you determine it? We've heard variations on that.
9:15 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I think we would have to look, obviously, to Status of Women Canada, which has a responsibility in this area. Actually, it could almost be, in a way, in part an audit of them as well as to how they are influencing government. I could see that as being a broader kind of audit, and I think we would use their definition, given that they seem to have the responsibility in this area.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal