Status of Women Committee on Nov. 6th, 2014

[Dr. Ann Armstrong]

I don't think we're beyond that. Some of the recent events would suggest that we are not. I think, though, that if I had limited resources, I would focus on those people who are most vulnerable.

In the case of what we're talking about today, those would be internationally educated professionals, men or women. I think non-internationals are, as it were, local men who probably have more built-in resources, and certainly far greater networks. So if I had limited time and money, I would put it where I think it's needed most. That would be for internationally educated professionals, both men and women. That isn't to say mentoring is not a great idea generally, but I'm assuming there are some constraints here.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay.

Could I just ask you quickly about business experience?

One of the things that I've seen in the west is that a lot of women run the large non-profits. This is a real leap forward for them, and a great thing to put on their resumés. They're running the YWCA; they're running the science centre; they're running large organizations. But sometimes our women aren't moving into the business field, or business training, as much as they might be with the humanities these days.

Do you do any business training per se with your women?

[Dr. Ann Armstrong]

Maybe I just need to clarify something. By “business training”, do you mean things like financials and so on?

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Yes. I mean financials, or even fundraising, so that when they're out there networking, they have an idea of how all of that works.

[Dr. Ann Armstrong]

No, we do not. Our focus is on skills such as oral communication, managing the nuances of the workplace, understanding the culture of organizations, etc. We put tremendous emphasis on communication, whether it's written communication, oral communication, or how to communicate at networking events. We also spend a lot of time on actual job interviews and resumé-building. Those are things that turn out to have many more cultural nuances than, certainly, I appreciated early on. Basically, we try to make our participants—not job-ready, because they are job-ready, but—armed with some of the skills that perhaps they didn't realize they needed in order to be effective in the workplace.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you so much. I found that fascinating.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much, Ms. Crockatt and Mrs. Armstrong.

Ms. Ashton now has the floor for five minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Wonderful.

Thank you very much, Ms. Armstrong, for joining us today and sharing the successes of your work and that of your team.

One of the recurring issues that we've heard about from the women who have testified at this committee is the challenge that systemic barriers pose when it comes to reaching positions of leadership and achieving prosperity. The experience of immigrant women and racialized women—if they are racialized women—is different when it comes to the impact of those systemic barriers.

One of the key issues that has been raised both in this committee but also more broadly as a barrier that women face is the lack of access to child care, and how that hinders progress in one's career, being able to make long-term plans, and disproportionately hinders the success of women.

I'm wondering if you could speak to that in the context of your work—if that is something that is raised—and what you see we can do about it.

[Dr. Ann Armstrong]

Thank you for the question.

It's not something we typically tackle, although, as you can well imagine, it comes up all the time, because people in our programs have the same issue of child care as many of us across the country do. We don't particularly address it in the sense of coming up with solutions, because it's a little bit outside of our purview. But one of the challenging issues that we face is that we want to be as upfront and clear to our participants—I'm talking women in particular here—about the nature of systemic discrimination in this country. For them, it's an additional burden. I may face the same discrimination, but I'm not here as a new Canadian. We address those issues in conversation. I feel it's really imperative for people to be alert to that. I don't want to have happen what once happened. It was actually a man who said, “Because I have not been successful here in Canada, I feel that I have let down Canadian immigrants.“ I thought it was an extraordinary comment that somehow he felt that he represented a group of people. However, as you know, it is not an atypical experience for women. We often feel that, somehow, we are either the token woman or seen as a representative of something. We then feel concerned if we don't meet whatever this externally imposed standard is.

I try to be very upfront with our participants about the issues of systemic discrimination, but in a way that does not discourage them. Clearly, they need to go in with their eyes wide open, but they also need to avoid taking onto themselves some kind of additional burden of blame that may come because they feel they've got, as it were, a double whammy: they're women—they maybe, in fact, have a triple burden in their mind—they're racialized women, and they're new Canadians.

In short, while we don't address the issue directly, I certainly try to alert people to the challenges they face, and to the fact that they may indeed have a double or triple burden. I try to do it in a way that does not undermine their confidence because, ultimately, if I do that, then we haven't been successful.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Obviously, one of the things I'm sure you're familiar with, and which our committee comes up against constantly, is the lack of resources that exist outside of academic institutions—resources in terms of advocacy and support that ought to exist for immigrant women or racialized women who face discrimination, whether in terms of the workplace or housing or child care. I'm wondering if you feel it's important that we support the kind of advocacy in our broader community that the women you work with could benefit from, advocacy that would be in line with promoting equality of immigrant women in our country.

[Dr. Ann Armstrong]

Absolutely, and as I was listening to your question and thinking back about your previous question, one of the things that graduates of our program can do and I think would be very pleased to do, as would be similar programs, I'm sure , would be themselves to be advocates. We've created an opportunity for some degree of empowerment and we have seen the transformation that moves simply from personal empowerment to working towards advocacy in their own particular networks.

Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more and it seems to me that we have an opportunity to prevail upon the talented, international, educated professionals to advocate somewhat on our behalf. Therefore, they will have some of the credibility and the connection with the new Canadian communities and can draw upon and really make that strong connection. So the point of advocacy to me is central.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Ambler, you have five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ann, for being here. It's just been fascinating and I'm thrilled to learn more about your program. It's such an impressive program. You're clearly doing a lot of good for the women and men that you're helping.

So I have a quick question. How do you measure success?

[Dr. Ann Armstrong]

I think if I could answer that well, I'd probably have to patent it, but in any event, we certainly look at it as a long-term growth. I really feel compelled to put in a plug for the program manager who, herself, is a new Canadian and does the long-term data collection. Her name is Sabina Michael and she has been in contact with every single participant graduate since she took the pilot.

We basically do what many good non-profits do and that is to track success over time, and it's a huge part of our work. We stay connected, we report job change, and if we can, we try to get information on income change. So we look at new job progression, income, and also, perhaps more informally, just a sense of how they feel about their personal state they are in. Those are basically three measures we can calculate, and one that's a bit more intuitive.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned in your opening remarks that there are specific challenges to women entering the social economy and sometimes challenges that men don't face. When you said that, I was wondering if you've looked at fundraising specifically. I ask because that is a key role of many not-for-profits and I know that women sometimes don't consider themselves good at asking for money or raising funds. We've heard from witnesses in this study who've said that sometimes women don't have the same confidence; they don't put themselves out there as much as men might.

I'm wondering if you've looked at that aspect of it, of their being able to raise money.

[Dr. Ann Armstrong]

I have not done so directly, but certainly in the evidence around the approach to negotiation that men and women take, clearly we have seen some difference: women seem to come from more of a position of gratitude, whereas men come more from a position of entitlement. That's been studied. When you look at how people conduct negotiation—and fundraising absolutely is a negotiation, in that I have a cause, you have money, let's make a deal—I think it would certainly not be an unreasonable issue to think that women may feel, based on the negotiation theory, a little bit diffident about asking.

Having said that, though, there certainly are some very powerful and successful women fundraisers. But that may come in part from their social networks that have absolutely nothing to do per se with any diffidence or not about making the ask.

Your observation, based on what you said you heard from witnesses, makes total sense to me. However, it's not an area that I have done any research on, other than knowing a little about negotiation theory.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you.

It's also the same skill set, you might agree, as negotiations during interviews, because an interview is essentially a negotiation too: “You have a job you're offering; that's the job I want.”

[Dr. Ann Armstrong]

Yes.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Again, your observation about gratitude versus entitlement is also very interesting. Women perhaps need a bit more confidence in being able to promote themselves, being able to negotiate from a position of confidence.

You've used that word yourself many times.

[Dr. Ann Armstrong]

Yes.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Your time is up.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Oh, thank you very much for being here today. I really enjoyed it.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

I didn't mean to cut you off. You have 20 seconds left.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Twenty seconds. It's okay.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

A big thank you.

Ms. Brown, you have the floor for five minutes.