Evidence of meeting #36 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was via.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Miller  Chief Safety and Transportation Officer, Canadian National
Helena Borges  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Gateways & Infrastructure, Department of Transport

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Mario Laframboise

Good afternoon, colleagues.

I am pleased to be replacing our chairman, Mr. Tweed, who, just like our deputy chair, Mr. Volpe, cannot be here today. It is my privilege therefore to chair this meeting.

As per the agenda, we will begin by hearing from witnesses, including Mr. Miller, Chief Safety and Transportation Officer at Canadian National. We will then hear from representatives from the Department of Transport. We will be discussing high speed rail, a study which is already underway.

You have all received the correspondence from the Minister of Transport, Mr. Baird, dealing with Bill C-37. We will have an opportunity to discuss this during committee business, perhaps 15 to 20 minutes before the conclusion of this meeting.

Mr. Jean, you have the floor.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I'm not sure if it's the translation, but I just want to draw attention to the fact that while the minister is not going to be here, two officials from the minister's office, including the assistant deputy minister, will be here. That might be a glitch in the interpretation. But the minister is not here today.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Mario Laframboise

That is correct.

However, we will be discussing Bill C-37 during committee business, at the end of the meeting.

Mr. Bevington, you wanted to say something?

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In looking at the agenda, I see that we're scheduled to go to 5:30 with the witnesses, followed by committee business, and I think that's an extension. Could we see the agenda tightened so that we complete our business by 5:30?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Why don't we do 3:30 to 4:15, and then 4:15 to...?

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Mario Laframboise

Are you moving a motion on this, Mr. Bevington?

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Yes. I am. Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Mario Laframboise

Everyone is in favour of the proposal. We will therefore shorten the time allocated for questions in order to cover all the items on the agenda.

Mr. Miller, the floor is yours. You can begin by making a presentation and then respond to members' questions.

3:35 p.m.

Paul Miller Chief Safety and Transportation Officer, Canadian National

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We're very pleased to be here. Thank you for the invitation. I'll make my remarks very brief to maximize the time available for the committee's questions.

At CN we are strong supporters of passenger rail operations in Canada as well as in the U.S. Here in Canada, about 77% of all passenger train miles are operated on CN's network. VIA Rail Canada, GO Transit in Toronto, and Agence métropolitaine de transport in Montreal are our three largest passenger train customers. There are others as well, such as the Rocky Mountaineer and our own operation on the former Algoma Central.

Safe service, efficient service, and reliable service are the keys for this business. For the first 10 months of this year, our on-time performance for our three largest customers has averaged about 92%. It's a little bit less for VIA Rail, and it's a little better than that for our commuter customers in Toronto and Montreal.

Another example of CN support for passenger rail in Canada is our strong relationship with VIA, with which we are working on upgrades to CN infrastructure to support additional train starts and improve schedule reliability in the Toronto-Montreal-Ottawa corridors.

I understand that your current study concerns high-speed passenger rail operations, which are an exciting reality in Europe and Asia and are currently receiving significant support in the U.S. This committee, the government, and Parliament as a whole will have a central role in determining whether or not Canada embarks on a true high-speed rail initiative.

It's an important and timely public policy decision involving significant costs but also significant benefits. Your decision will become a key element of long-term transportation policy in Canada.

Frankly, I do not envy you the task of balancing the mobility, energy efficiency, and environmental benefits of rail transportation with the competing investment needs that you must all deal with. But if I may, please allow me to summarize what CN feels are some of the key attributes of a safe and efficient high-speed rail passenger implementation.

First, we feel that it should operate on a dedicated and fenced right-of-way, without operations co-mingled between passenger and freight. There should be no public crossings at grade on that right-of-way, either public or private.

It should provide for electrified operation and electric locomotives. It should be protected, from a train control and safety point of view, with a positive train control type of system.

It should afford gentle gradients and curvature in order to obtain the types of speeds that the modern equipment can make. It should be efficiently linked to other transportation systems, particularly regional and urban public transportation systems.

I know that your committee has heard about the option that's generally termed “higher-speed” rail. This would be an incremental approach that would see passenger trains running marginally faster than today, still co-mingled with freight operations.

While I am not here on behalf of CN to say no to anything, this is not an option that CN would recommend. A maximum passenger train speed in excess of the current maximum of 100 miles per hour on existing heavy freight corridors is fraught with difficulties: in maintaining the track to the close tolerances required for passenger operations under those speeds, due to the heavy loads imposed by freight trains; in balancing the super-elevation of the curves required for the mix of both fast and slow trains; and in protecting against road and rail conflicts at crossings at grade and against the possibility of trespass. I would note that on our line, our Kingston subdivision between Toronto and Montreal, we have 246 public and 203 private crossings at grade.

Finally, in terms of maintaining schedule reliability as capacity consumption increases due to the increased difference in train speeds, which causes more frequent overtakes of slower trains, I note that in most territories outside the northeast corridor in the U.S., Amtrak, the passenger train operator there, is limited to 79 miles per hour, versus our current maximum here in Canada of 100 miles per hour between Toronto and Montreal. While maximum speeds for Amtrak are much higher in the northeast corridor—and again, I know your committee has studied this—there are very few freight trains operating in that territory, except on the short segments serving the Baltimore area. As well, the northeast corridor is completely grade-separated.

To summarize, CN believes that the best approach for high-speed passenger rail operations is on a dedicated right of way such as we see in Europe and Japan. However, we are willing to work with all participants on any option that affects our network or right of way. Our concerns with operating on a non-dedicated basis and co-mingling freight and passenger operations at higher speed include safety--and we would certainly want to have the rail safety group from Transport Canada at the table in any sort of discussion--passenger schedule reliability, and protection of our ability to move our customers or freight in an efficient manner.

Mr. Chair, I'll end there. I look forward to the committee's questions.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Mario Laframboise

Thank you, Mr. Miller.

We will now move on to questions with seven minutes for each party.

Mr. Dhaliwal.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Miller, for coming here.

You have said that you would like to see a dedicated right of way. From your perspective, if we were to have a dedicated right of way on the Quebec–Windsor corridor, would there be substantial gains for the freight trains?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Safety and Transportation Officer, Canadian National

Paul Miller

There's ample capacity for freight train operation in the Quebec City to Windsor corridor now, sir. We're presently operating about eight trains in each direction, and the heaviest portion of that is between Toronto and Montreal, plus some local freight. It's a double-track network, so there would be ample capacity.

Currently, with the additional passenger trains on that network, there are some capacity improvements that I'm sure your committee is well aware of that have to go on there. But that's really to make sure we can keep the freight trains out of the passenger trains' way and maintain the schedule reliability of the passenger.

So we don't see a big benefit for freight. There would be an improvement in reliability, in that we wouldn't have to stop and clear passenger trains at certain locations. But it would not be a quantum leap in capacity or service for freight.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Very close to my home in British Columbia, there is a century-old swing bridge in New Westminster. I'm certain you are very familiar with it. It's a key step to improve passenger rail service if we have to go on the Seattle-Vancouver corridor. Would upgrading this swing bridge provide significant benefits to the freight operators as well?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Safety and Transportation Officer, Canadian National

Paul Miller

We are limited.... I wish I knew the exact number. I believe our freight speed limit is 10 miles per hour on the Fraser River bridge. So anything that would increase that would of course be a benefit. But again, you're operating through a congested terminal area from our Thornton yard in Surrey over towards downtown and to the north shore. So it's not like we're going to be running trains at 30, 40, or 50 miles an hour through most of that territory. I'm not saying there would be no benefit, sir, but it would not be a quantum step.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

When we look at the Seattle-Vancouver corridor, on the U.S. side they have made quite substantial improvements to their infrastructure. When we look on the Canadian side, it's been ignored. Do you see the federal government playing a role in making improvements to the Seattle corridor on the Canadian side?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Safety and Transportation Officer, Canadian National

Paul Miller

As you're probably aware, that trackage is actually owned by Burlington Northern Santa Fe. And the question of whether the government would or should make a priority for investment to improve passenger train of course is more a question for you, ladies and gentlemen, than for me, but certainly there would be the possibility of improved service. In fact, there was a bit of infrastructure added there in the not too distant past to enable the operation of a second Amtrak train from Seattle to Vancouver--a second in each direction, I should say.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

You said that safety and reliability in every sense is the key to the railway operations. When I look at the railway from the CN perspective, there have been many accidents in the past, and that has jeopardized lives. Would it be fair to say that instead of CN taking steps forward, the federal government now has come in to provide you with the leadership when it comes to railway safety?

3:45 p.m.

Chief Safety and Transportation Officer, Canadian National

Paul Miller

There's nothing more important to CN, or to any freight railroad or passenger railroad, than operating safely.

Certainly the Railway Safety Act review that was carried out in 2007—their report was published in 2008—involved all players at that table. There were unions, the railway companies, the federal government of course, and the provinces were involved as well. We are pleased to be working on taking the 56 recommendations that group made and bringing them from the 30,000-foot level, if I may, to the operating level. It's about what changes we will make, what things we are going to do differently as an industry.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

If we have to go high speed and use the same tracks that we use for the freight trains, do you see any difficulty achieving the safety measures—those 56 recommendations that have been made?

3:45 p.m.

Chief Safety and Transportation Officer, Canadian National

Paul Miller

Not so much from the perspective of those 56 recommendations, sir, but certainly to go any faster than we're going now in our key Toronto-Montreal territory for passenger trains would be a next step up in the class of track. That involves closer tolerances to the geometry and the geometric tolerances at which the track must be maintained.

Yes, we do see challenges there. We're not saying it's insurmountable. But we are saying that at 100 miles an hour we're at the edge of where the industry is worldwide—other than in a few spots on the northeast corridor—in terms of mixing higher-speed passenger trains and lower-speed freight trains. That's why our goal is that it would be on a dedicated corridor. However, we are willing to work with any and all stakeholders, if people want to do a very detailed review of what it would take to go to the next step.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Mario Laframboise

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC

Welcome, Mr. Miller. I would like to thank you for being here today.

In your short presentation, you did not refer to the environmental measures that would absolutely have to be taken if high speed rail were to become a reality. The terrible problems that France is facing come to mind. In some regions dominated by swamp lands where there are frogs, the French had to build a special corridor in which frog noises were reproduced so that the frogs would get used to using the tunnel. That one mile section alone ended up costing around $10 million. There are all manner of environmental considerations.

Not taking that into account, do you have an idea of any additional costs on top of the estimate you have already submitted?

3:45 p.m.

Chief Safety and Transportation Officer, Canadian National

Paul Miller

Sir, I don't have any cost data whatsoever to discuss with you. I know that's something the Government of Canada is working on with the governments of Ontario and Quebec.

In terms of the environmental mitigation measures you mentioned, you're absolutely right: they apply not only to high-speed passenger rail but to freight rail as well. We have a fishway through the middle of our intermodal terminal in Surrey, British Columbia, for example, and in our recent purchase of the Elgin, Joliet and Eastern Railway in the U.S., outside Chicago, we had issues involving the protection of butterflies and turtles.

It's a common thing for a linear network, of any type, to have to deal with these sorts of issues. You're absolutely right that this would be among the costs, both doing the reviews and the consultations with the people. Any time you have property acquisitions that might involve aboriginal or first nations communities, for example, they have to have their say, and they have their environmental experts comment on the uses of that land as well. It is a significant cost.

Again, it's for the government, and people such as yourselves, to weigh those costs against the benefits, including environmental benefits, you get from rail transportation, much as they have done in France and elsewhere in Europe, and in Japan.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC

Thank you.

France, California and Japan all had different approaches in developing high speed rail, however all three did decide to set aside a dedicated track for the HSR. This track is not used to transport freight in either California, Japan or France. Am I mistaken?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Safety and Transportation Officer, Canadian National

Paul Miller

That is generally correct, sir, especially the very high-speed types of operations: 240 to 300 kilometres per hour is a completely dedicated track. The one exception to that is in the northeast corridor in the U.S. between Baltimore and Washington and Boston, which I believe your committee has studied. Sections of that are operated at 135 to 150 miles per hour. One section of about 30 miles does have fairly significant freight volumes, and they manage their way through that, but I don't think it's their choice. It is not something they would like to have for the long term, because it does pose the sorts of challenges I spoke about in my remarks.

Generally speaking, for the bulk of the operations you describe, it is a separate infrastructure.