Evidence of meeting #31 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aviation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Let me just ask a final question to Ms. Collins.
Ms. Collins, all three briefs today point to the fact that audits are not inspections. Inspectors are going into inspection settings after the inspectee has been advised that they are coming, sometimes with up to 10 weeks' notice. The number of inspections being performed is, apparently from all three briefs, clearly not sufficient. Can you help us understand? How bad is this problem?
9:30 a.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
This problem is very serious. What has happened over the years is that as positions have been eliminated.... We had a previous deputy minister, Louis Ranger, come before this committee before he left and he addressed the staff shortage. So what we have is an inspector community left whose main role is SMS audit and those functions, and little to no time for direct inspections. That's very problematic. Transport Canada is the regulator. You cannot delegate that responsibility to the companies in the manner that it has become.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
Thank you very much.
We'll now move to Mr. Watson for seven minutes.
June 5th, 2014 / 9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for appearing today.
Just for the benefit of some background for the public who are listening in, there have been substantial increases in air traffic over the last number of years, and they are forecast, of course, to continue growing at the rate of about 4% per year through 2025, according to the extent of ICAO's forecast on air traffic. Yet the number of accidents in the modern era are in fact at their lowest. I appreciate that incidents still happen. Even on the natural course of increase you would expect accidents and incidents to go up as well. That's noted in the Auditor General's report, that Transport Canada appreciates this is in fact the case and that is why we have to get this correct.
One other clarification, it almost seems from witnesses that somehow there's an implication that SMS is Transport Canada's idea. It's not Transport Canada's idea. It's ICAO's idea, and its member states are all moving towards implementation of safety management systems. We just happen to be the first and the most mature along the implementation of safety management systems. I think that has to be clear. The International Labour Organization even supports management systems where occupational health and safety are integrated into a full system.
So in principle this isn't a new idea. It may be new to implementation in the aviation sector, recent to the aviation sector. So I think just for context of our discussion, that's important.
By the way, just for clarification, to the UCTE, how many inspectors do you actually represent? That wasn't clear in your brief. Of a global number you said you represent most of them. Out of those 1,300-plus or 1,350, how many do you actually represent?
9:30 a.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
Approximately 1,000....
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Are you suggesting, both to the CFPA and to the UCTE, that no traditional inspections are being done whatsoever in the aviation sector?
Because your statements have said that SMS has replaced inspections. I just need to know for the record.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
9:30 a.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
There are zero unannounced inspections being done, and there are relatively few direct inspections being done.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
So you're suggesting that we went from over 13,000 traditional inspections about three or four years ago, to zero.
9:30 a.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
I'm not sure about the 13,000, but—
9:30 a.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
—that is correct.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
9:30 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
We do not do traditional inspections, what we used to do. We do not do any of those anymore. Everything, including for companies that are non-SMS, is being done in accordance with SUR-001, which speaks solely to SMS.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
So, it's zero inspections.
Okay, we'll cross-examine Transport Canada on that particular number.
9:35 a.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
Could you clarify the 13,000?
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
It's in something that we received from the UCTE. It may not be the specific presentation you've put before the committee today, but we did receive a package on the Union of Canadian Transportation Employees' “Canada's Broken Transportation Safety Oversight System. A Concerned Inspectorate Speaks: Recommendations for Reforms...”. It's in one of the appendixes that is noted in there.
With respect to safety management systems, you're suggesting that having safety management systems, or the way it's being implemented, is a less safe or a less rigorous safety oversight system. The Auditor General's report in 2012, on page 2, under “What we found”, says:
Since 2008, Transport Canada has made progress in evolving from the traditional surveillance approach—largely based on responding to regulatory requirements—to a systems-based approach designed for large and small aviation companies.
He goes on to say, “This approach allows for more consistent and rigorous surveillance of aviation companies’ compliance with safety regulations.”
Do we believe the Auditor General, or your testimony today?
Mr. Chalmers is waving his hand, Mr. Chair. Perhaps he'd like to weigh in on that.
9:35 a.m.
President, Pacific Airworthiness Consulting Inc.
I believe that's what the Transport....
May I speak, sir?
9:35 a.m.
President, Pacific Airworthiness Consulting Inc.
Okay, thank you.
What the Auditor General wrote is what Transport Canada told the Auditor General. I believe that's just a quotation of the—
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Are you suggesting that the Auditor General, then, is just a lackey for Transport Canada?
9:35 a.m.
President, Pacific Airworthiness Consulting Inc.
I've read all three reports from 2007, 2008, and 2012, as stating things that the Auditor General is in no way qualified to state.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Mr. Chalmers, maybe you read page 12, at 5.20, where the Auditor General goes on to say, “We found that Transport Canada has a comprehensive regulatory framework that is consistent with ICAO requirements.” It goes on to say that “ICAO audited Canada’s civil aviation regulatory framework and similarly concluded that it meets Canada’s international obligations.”
Is he still a lackey for Transport Canada, Mr. Chalmers? I think the Auditor General has some credibility.