Evidence of meeting #11 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was seniors.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Claude Rocan  Director General, Centre for Health Promotion, Public Health Agency of Canada
John Cox  Acting Director, Division of Ageing and Seniors, Public Health Agency of Canada
Linda Mealing  Assistant Director, Partnerships, Institute of Aging, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
Nancy Milroy-Swainson  Director, Chronic and Continuing Care Division. Helath Policy Branch, Department of Health
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I'm glad everybody is in happy spirits.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are yet again into a study of the veterans health care review and veterans independence program. Today we have a full roster of witnesses. That's very exciting.

With the Public Health Agency of Canada we have John Cox, the acting director for the division of aging and seniors. Then we have Claude Rocan, director general for the centre for health promotion. With the Canadian Institutes of Health Research we have Linda Mealing, assistant director of partnerships, institute of aging. With the Department of Health we have Nancy Milroy-Swainson, director, chronic and continuing care division, health policy branch.

Thank you very much for coming today to appear before us. We generally give twenty minutes to the witnesses.

We have Mr. Rocan for ten minutes, I understand.

3:30 p.m.

Claude Rocan Director General, Centre for Health Promotion, Public Health Agency of Canada

It will probably be closer to ten to fifteen minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Perfect. Go to twenty minutes if you really want. That's fine.

We will open it to questions in a predetermined order for the members of the committee. Then as they ask questions you may want to refer some of those answers. I'm guessing that's why your other friends are here today.

Mr. Claude Rocan, the floor is yours.

3:30 p.m.

Director General, Centre for Health Promotion, Public Health Agency of Canada

Claude Rocan

Thanks very much.

I'll be making this presentation on behalf of the health portfolio, as you've mentioned. Thank you for inviting us to speak to you today about healthy aging for Canadians, and how the results of our work relate to this committee's review of veterans health care.

You've asked us to focus on the issues from a general seniors population perspective that you can consider in your deliberations on the recommendations of the Gerontological Advisory Council and the report Keeping the Promise. You specifically want us to help you consider the recommendation for increased health promotion and innovative service delivery that would help to better meet the health needs of Canada's military service veterans today and into the future.

My focus today is on the public health role in healthy aging—what it is, how it can be achieved, its benefits to older Canadians, their families and to Canadians in general. I will highlight trends and research that support a health promotion approach to meeting seniors' health needs including veterans, and provide some examples of the many and varied initiatives and research undertaken by the Public Health Agency of Canada and our partners in the federal health portfolio.

Our work clearly confirms the importance of intensifying population-based approaches to promoting healthy aging.

Let me start by telling you about our role. The federal health portfolio, which includes Health Canada, the Public Health Agency of Canada, Canadian Institutes of Health Research, and other organizations, works to help the people of Canada maintain and improve their health. The mission of the Public Health Agency of Canada is to promote and protect the health of Canadians through leadership, partnership, innovation, and action in public health. We work to promote health and prevent disease and injury, and on emergency preparedness and response. Our work also includes laboratory testing and regulation that support action during infectious disease outbreaks and emergencies.

The public health role related to seniors is guided by a focus on healthy aging; that is, a lifelong process of optimizing opportunities for improving and preserving health and physical, social, and mental wellness; independence; quality of life; and enhancing successful life-course transitions.

The broad definition is consistent with and adapted from the World Health Organization's definition of active aging. It also reflects our knowledge that a number of factors interact to influence our physical, mental, social, and spiritual well-being--such factors as income, education, health services, personal health practices, and coping skills to name a few.

This approach encourages us to focus our efforts upstream—that is, before people become ill or injured. At the same time, we need to support those living with chronic disease and disability and help prevent further illness among this vulnerable group which can include veterans.

Let's also set the stage with some facts about seniors, their health and healthy aging. It won't surprise you to hear that as individuals and as a population, Canadians are aging. While today, people aged 65 and over make up some 13% of the Canadian population, by 2041, they will account for 25% of the total population, and they will number some nine million people.

The good news is that older Canadians are living longer and with fewer disabilities than the generations before them.

Almost three quarters of seniors living at home in 2003 rate their overall health as good, very good, or excellent. Nearly one half of seniors say they are physically active. A third report getting a flu shot within the last year—that's as of 2005. Seniors are active in social and economic life in their communities. They are working longer, and when they retire from paid employment they continue to play a vital role in a wide range of community activities—on boards, in schools, and by providing vital support to families and other seniors. Clearly, seniors are taking action to look after their health and well-being.

However, there's more to this picture. We also know that a large majority of seniors—that's 85% of those aged 65 to 79—have at least one chronic disease or condition, such as asthma, arthritis, rheumatism, high blood pressure, emphysema, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, schizophrenia, mood or anxiety disorder, or obesity.

More than one in four have four or more chronic diseases. Prevalence is higher among our most vulnerable seniors--for example, economically disadvantaged groups. Some 15% of Canadians aged 65 and over have been diagnosed with diabetes. In 2007, an estimated 70,000 new cancer cases occurred among Canadians aged 70 years or older.

Disability rates increase with age, from 31% among younger seniors—that's the 65-to-74-years group—to 53% for older Canadians. For these people, everyday activities are limited because of a health condition or problem.

Seniors, especially those over 85, are much more likely to have Alzheimer's disease or related dementia; one in three older seniors is affected. By 2031, we can expect the number of Canadians with dementia to triple from its 1991 level.

Clearly, chronic diseases account for an enormous burden—to individuals, their families and other informal caregivers, to the health care system and to the Canadian economy.

Chronic diseases are responsible for 67% of total direct costs in health care and 60% of total indirect costs ($52 billion) as a result of early death, loss of productivity and foregone income.

Promoting health is therefore something that definitely makes sense. The federal government works closely with provinces and territories to find ways to collaborate in the area of seniors' health.

Our work as co-lead of Canada's working group on healthy aging and seniors' wellness—that's a working group of the federal-provincial-territorial ministers responsible for seniors—resulted in a report called Healthy Aging in Canada: A New Vision, a Vital Investment. This 2006 report brings together our knowledge about seniors' health; research, including what we know and don't know about what contributes to the health and well-being of seniors and what public health interventions play a role; as well as a recommended framework for action.

This and other research tells us that, for example, there is a clear need for and there are clear benefits associated with helping people maintain optimal health and quality of life at every stage of life.

Relative to all other population groups, healthy lifestyle changes have the greatest impact on health status for seniors. For example, later-life introduction of regular physical activity can extend years of life and years of independent living and can improve the quality of life of older people.

Health promotion efforts are important to disease prevention. Up to 70% of cancers, 90% of type 2 diabetes cases, and 50% to 70% of strokes are preventable.

Seniors living at home generally want to avoid entering a long-term care facility. Moreover, home care can be a cost-effective alternative to long-term facility care, and long-term care in the home can reduce or avoid the need for costly acute-care hospitalization.

So by providing the right supports and services at the right time in the right setting, we can better promote and support the health of Canadians as they age, while reducing the burden on the already overwhelmed system.

Let's turn to some of our recent and current work, starting with building the evidence base.

A key aspect of public health is the continual monitoring of trends and emerging issues. We work with partners to collect and analyze data on chronic disease and other health issues, making it available to researchers and decision-makers. Here are some highlights:

Our chronic disease infobase profiles the epidemiology of major non-communicable diseases in Canada, including most current cancers and cardiovascular and respiratory diseases, by province and territory and by regional health unit.

The Canadian integrated public health surveillance service brings together the strategic alliance of public health and information technology professionals, working collaboratively to build an integrated suite of computer and database tools specifically for use by Canadian public health professionals.

The Public Health Agency of Canada and Health Canada have been working with Statistics Canada to develop the Canadian community health survey on healthy aging. This survey will deal with the topic of aging and factors that affect healthy aging such as general health and well-being, use of health care services, social support networks, and work-and-retirement transitions. Data collection will take place for a year, beginning in the summer of 2008.

The Canadian Institutes of Health Research is investing in age-related research to create knowledge in the field of aging and advance the knowledge into action to improve the quality of life and health of older Canadians. In 2006-07 this investment totalled over $85 million. The lead CIHR Institutes in this area are the Institute of Aging and the Institute of Health Services and Research Policy.

We must find new and better ways of chronic care management. While prevention of disease is critical, we must also address the needs of Canadians, including seniors, with chronic disease and to prevent further illness, injury and disability.

One of our current and important initiatives in this area is the Canadian diabetes strategy's national project with the Active Living Coalition for Older Adults, aimed at supporting older adults in leading a healthy-activity lifestyle. Ultimately, our work will result in a comprehensive action plan to address diabetes among older adults.

The Canadian best practices portal for health promotion and chronic disease prevention contains relevant and accessible best practices information to enhance decision-making for practitioners, policy-makers, and researchers. The portal currently provides access to 16 interventions to help seniors prevent and address chronic disease and promote health, related to nutrition, physical activity, smoking cessation, and other issues.

The Public Health Agency of Canada also works with a national network of experts to address the public health needs of the population of seniors with cancer and better meet their needs, in particular to understand the scope and nature of support needed and the issues related to concurrent conditions in mental health as well as education and awareness.

Related to improving the mental health of seniors, it is estimated that one in five seniors suffers from a mental health disorder, including depression, cognitive impairment and/or dementia, anxiety disorder, addictions, psychosis, bipolar disorders, and schizophrenia. The number of seniors diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease is expected to almost double from 435,000 in 2006 to 750,000 in 2031. Poor mental health can contribute to a decline in physical health and serious stress on family and friends, and can lead to excessive use of the health care system, including longer hospital stays.

The Public Health Agency of Canada has funded the Canadian Coalition on Seniors Mental Health to develop the first-ever national guidelines on seniors' mental health. These will make an important contribution to the assessment, diagnosis, and treatment of mental health problems among seniors.

The agency has also funded the development of a policy guide for home care staff to help them better meet the mental health needs of seniors. We are working with the Canadian Institutes on Health Research—the Institute of Aging—to support research on cognitive development.

Preventing falls is another very significant issue in the area of seniors and aging. Falls are the most common cause of injury among seniors, and they are preventable. Seniors fall at enormous cost. One in three seniors falls each year. Falls account for 85% of all injury-related hospitalizations, at a cost to the health care system of over $1 billion a year. Injuries from falls and fear of falling are barriers to social inclusion of seniors.

Included in our work on this issue was a collaborative venture between Health Canada and Veterans Affairs Canada to fund community-based health promotion projects to help identify effective falls-prevention strategies for veterans and seniors. The work and its results are in active use. For example, Community Links, a not-for-profit organization in Nova Scotia, developed an initiative called “Preventing Falls Together”, which was launched in 2004 and has become an integral part of Nova Scotia's injury prevention strategy.

Building on our State of Falls report, the Public Health Agency of Canada will hold a workshop in February to gather advice from falls prevention practitioners, surveillance experts and researchers from across Canada to lay the ground work for coordinated use of data sources and enhanced capacity to track the prevalence, incidence and outcome of seniors' falls in Canada.

With regard to emergency preparedness, people aged 60 and over have the highest death rates of any age group during disasters. Some recent catastrophic events in Canada and elsewhere highlight the vulnerability of this group and the need for planning and cooperation to support seniors during such emergencies as SARS and weather-related and other potential disasters.

The Public Health Agency of Canada, through its division of aging and seniors as well as through its Centre For Emergency Preparedness and Response, continues to provide national and international leadership by addressing seniors' needs and their contributions in the event of a large-scale emergency.

We have worked with partners at home and internationally, with governments and NGOs, with the media, academics, the private sector, and seniors to address emergency planning for seniors.

Canada has been invited to address the issue at the UN Commission for Social Development in February. In March we will host an international workshop focused on strengthening networks, identifying best practices and effective messages about emergency preparedness for seniors.

Finally, I would like to highlight our important national and international work on age-friendly cities. We know that the collective challenges in shaping communities that meet the needs of an aging population are immense. In order to create sustainable responses and capitalize on Canada's opportunities to address the complexities we face, all sectors of society and levels of government must be engaged.

As you have heard from others, seniors are vital contributors to the development of innovative and effective solutions. They live the challenges; they know what works and what doesn't; and they have expertise to inform approaches and decisions.

At the same time, the business community, municipal officials, the academic and voluntary organizations are all interested and valuable participants. Over the past two years, at both the international and domestic level, the Public Health Agency of Canada has collaborated in developing innovative models for promoting age-friendly communities.

In an age-friendly community, policies, services, and structures related to the physical and social environment are designed to support and enable older people to age actively, that is, to live in security, enjoy good health, and continue to participate fully in society. Public and commercial settings and services are made accessible to accommodate varying levels of ability.

Age-friendly service providers, public officials, community leaders, faith and business leaders alike all recognize the greater diversity among older persons, value and promote their inclusion and contribution in all areas of community life, respect their decisions and lifestyle choices, and anticipate and respond flexibly to aging-related needs and preferences.

Working guides for cities and small communities have been created and are attracting very enthusiastic reaction and interest in Canada and internationally. Manitoba and British Columbia have started using the age-friendly communities model, and other jurisdictions--Quebec, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland and Labrador--are examining how they can use it.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

We want to make sure translation has that right.

You can proceed.

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Centre for Health Promotion, Public Health Agency of Canada

Claude Rocan

The federal-provincial-territorial ministers responsible for seniors recently endorsed the model and encouraged the Public Health Agency to provide leadership in expanding its application across the country. We are now actively pursuing this charge, building on the broad and keen interest that already exists.

We believe that the age-friendly communities model can help seniors and all of the stakeholders in Canada's aging population to determine and initiate needed action that is responsive to and respectful of local needs and jurisdictional priorities.

In closing, I would say that evidence clearly demonstrates that older adults can live longer, healthier lives by staying socially connected, increasing their levels of physical activity, eating in a healthy way, taking steps to minimize their risks for falls, and refraining from smoking.

Canadian and international research shows that providing supporting and age-friendly environments and opportunities—the policies, services, programs and surroundings—to enable healthy aging enhances the independence and quality of life of older people.

I focused my comments today on a public health approach for addressing the health of older Canadians. Because our work addresses the health of all Canadians, it's highly relevant to your considerations concerning Canada's current and future veterans, including younger men and, increasingly, women.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Thank you. You were bang on twenty minutes. That's quite impressive.

I have some questions of my own, but I imagine committee members will get to them. At least I hope so.

First we will go to the Liberal Party of Canada. Mr. Russell, for seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you.

I appreciated your testimony and presentation.

Your presentation dealt generally with aging throughout the Canadian population. Has there been work focused on veterans, and were there any differences found in the research that came out of those studies?

Our brief from the researcher mentions a 2002 study focusing on the mental health of Canadian soldiers. Some say as many as 25% of our veterans, mainly those who have recently been in difficult situations, are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. I'm wondering if any work has been conducted in that field and if any effort is being put into that problem. What partnerships does the Public Health Agency of Canada have with Veterans Affairs, and what ongoing or past work have you done that could help inform our committee's work?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Centre for Health Promotion, Public Health Agency of Canada

Claude Rocan

With regard to the first part of your question, our work is indeed based on a population health approach. We look broadly at the health of Canadians and at aging.

In reference to the last part of your question, we have partnerships with Veterans Affairs. For example, we worked closely with Veterans Affairs on a study of falls. Together, we tested a number of national pilot projects, shared the results, and disseminated them. There is a federal interdepartmental committee on aging, chaired by the Department of Human Resources and Social Development. We participate on that committee, as does Veterans Affairs Canada. It is an opportunity for us to share information and to learn about public concerns. If we have knowledge that can be useful to them, we are glad to have the opportunity to share it.

I am going to ask my colleague John Cox to speak to the study on mental health.

3:55 p.m.

John Cox Acting Director, Division of Ageing and Seniors, Public Health Agency of Canada

I'll confess I'm not familiar with the particular study to which you referred. I would need to find out more about it, unless other colleagues here are familiar with it. In general, however, we have done a range of work on mental health issues affecting the seniors population, and we have provided work through voluntary sector partners. We contributed to the development of a lens on the mental health of seniors and persons with dementia.

There's a wide range of concern being expressed, and we need to address how we can make distinctions between some of the views commonly ascribed to aging, which are in fact issues of mental health. Situations arise in which someone is seen as just getting older, but being older is not a proper diagnosis for depression or other psychiatric disabilities, which impinge on older people and their families.

We are continuing to do work of this nature as we move forward.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

To follow up on that, Ms. Mealing, you're with the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. Is there any work being done on mental health, particularly post-traumatic stress disorder?

3:55 p.m.

Dr. Linda Mealing Assistant Director, Partnerships, Institute of Aging, Canadian Institutes of Health Research

Yes. There are 13 institutes at CIHR, one of which is the Institute of Neurosciences, Mental Health and Addiction. They are currently in discussions with Veterans Affairs Canada on partnerships dealing with post-traumatic stress.

We have funded exciting work in the past out of McGill University that showed how certain drugs can erase the fear associated with the memory of post-traumatic stress, though not necessarily the memory. You remember, but you don't have the emotional reaction to it. There is that kind of work going on, which is quite exciting.

Other researchers are looking at delirium and depression in veterans care program settings. Because the physiology of a senior person is different from that of a younger person, sometimes drugs for depression don't work well, so people are studying this.

Does that answer your question?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Yes, thank you.

I want to turn to a specific issue, and maybe it is an apparent contradiction. On page 5 you say that almost three-quarters of seniors living at home rate their overall health as good, very good, or excellent. On the next page, on page 6, it says a large majority of seniors, 85%, have at least one chronic disease, and 25% have at least four. How do those two statements come together? They seem to be contradictory. You have four kinds of diseases, but you still say your health is good, very good, or excellent.

It's a state of mind, I guess. Is it a comment on the management of the chronic diseases? Are people managing them better?

4 p.m.

Director General, Centre for Health Promotion, Public Health Agency of Canada

Claude Rocan

Again, I think it is a question of state of mind. The responses are subjective, so it's how people feel about their condition. What it speaks to is a fairly positive disposition, which I think is encouraging. It's certainly something to build on.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Now over to Monsieur Perron, with the Bloc Québécois, for seven minutes.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming and testifying. I don't know how to ask my question. Mr. Rocan, your presentation was fantastic. It was good, very good, very very good, but it seemed a little too good.

In society, there are no doubt more problems related to seniors, of whom I am one since I'm more than 64 years of age, to which we don't have any solutions. What do we do with post-traumatic stress syndrome cases. How are we Canadians and Quebeckers equipped to care for these people suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome, that is to say those who have suffered psychological injury in war?

I would also like you to give us some possible solutions to the following problems. You say that home care is a miracle for seniors. I believe in that: seniors should be kept in their family environment as long as possible. Are we equipped with co-generational housing? Do we have the necessary medical staff? What about family caregivers? Let's take the example of my son, if he decides to take care of me one day. I hope he'll have the heart to do it, and I believe that will be the case, but will he have the necessary skills to take care of his old father and mother?

Those are questions that concern me at 64 years of age. You say things are going so well, that research has been done, but we're not considering the existing problems with existing solutions or the problems that we may have. How can we get solutions to all the problems that seniors have today?

4 p.m.

Director General, Centre for Health Promotion, Public Health Agency of Canada

Claude Rocan

That's a very interesting question; thank you for it.

In fact, I wanted to describe what we're doing in the field and to talk about the challenges we're facing, but I definitely didn't want to give the impression that the challenges are minor. There are definitely some very important questions that have to be answered, and I think we're preparing to attack them.

I believe we've already talked a little about post-traumatic stress syndrome. We're doing research in that area. Do we have any potential solutions? I don't know exactly. Linda may want to talk about that a little more. That's a good question.

I talked about mental health in my speech; that's definitely a very important question for seniors. I also talked about the percentage of people suffering from Alzheimer's disease. These are definitely major challenges.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Allow me to speak. I would have preferred you to focus on one or two subjects, and for us to deal with them. For example, let's take the problem of falls. You say that's the main problem for seniors. Why didn't we focus on that? Why didn't we talk about the existing problems, and say how we could solve them and what the solutions were? You're painting a nice picture of the situation, and I'm “buying” the picture. It's true that research is being done.

I went to Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue. They're doing fantastic research there on post-traumatic stress syndrome. The Americans are also doing fantastic research on post-traumatic stress syndrome. We have tools, but we're short of psychologists. Where do we go? How can we ask the provinces and universities to train psychologists? Because we know that the problem is a personnel shortage. I believe the number or medical employees virtually everywhere in Canada will decline instead of increase. There is a shortage of professionals in all provinces of Canada.

So I would have expected you to say how we can go about asking the provinces to improve and develop staff so that we can have the necessary tools to take care of future seniors like me. Perhaps I'm speaking a little selfishly, but I'm a little old man, I know!

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Centre for Health Promotion, Public Health Agency of Canada

Claude Rocan

I could ask Ms. Milroy-Swainson to talk about medical and professional staff.

4:05 p.m.

Nancy Milroy-Swainson Director, Chronic and Continuing Care Division. Helath Policy Branch, Department of Health

You're right, this is a very big challenge, but one that's present around the world. We share our experience and our ideas with other countries, at certain conferences, in the context of other partnerships. In Canada, we have the Health Human Resources Action Plan. This is a plan established by the provincial, territorial and federal governments. We're working together to develop a common plan. How are we going to go about it? We're going to start by improving the training of a number of types of health professionals as regards their ability to care for a lot of problems, particularly chronic diseases. In that regard, we're working closely with the provinces, territories and also our partners—like the Canadian Medical Association—to develop certain training projects for physicians, psychologists and nurses. We're working on this problem. You're right, it's a real challenge, and we see that we have to address it.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

I'd like to talk to you about something else. I know that the University of Sherbrooke has a research chair specializing in aging which is apparently recognized worldwide. Is the research done there being transmitted around the world? Is it being kept in isolation? A lot of research is being done, but one would say it dies somewhere. We politicians and citizens don't know what the results are or where we're headed. For example, people talk about therapeutic cloning to cure Alzheimer's disease and diabetes. Where do we stand on that? Is that a solution to the problem or not? People are concerned because they're in the dark.

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Centre for Health Promotion, Public Health Agency of Canada

Claude Rocan

I'll react quickly by saying that this role is very important for the Public Health Agency of Canada. Our mandate is to develop knowledge and to transmit it. That's why we do a lot of work in cooperation with our partners, the provinces and territorial governments, and with other non-governmental partners. We find that the transmission of the knowledge and information that we have is very important in such a complex field. The Canadian Institutes of Health Research are concerned with developing knowledge and conducting the necessary research.

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Director, Partnerships, Institute of Aging, Canadian Institutes of Health Research

Dr. Linda Mealing

I can add something, if you wish.

We're definitely developing knowledge at the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, but our mandate is also to ensure that that knowledge is applied. We're now offering new fellowships to give researchers the opportunity to develop techniques for more effectively transferring knowledge to the public and to practitioners and decision-makers. Every target is different, and there are different cultures and policies. We're also trying to study the transfer process. The transfer of knowledge application is supposedly a science. That's not my field, but we're studying that.

Last year, for example, we established a program for a network on Alzheimer's disease and dementias. In that network, we require that researchers form a network with non-researchers, that is with individuals who work at the Alzheimer Society of Canada, to ensure that the knowledge we already have is applied to patients by caregivers and physicians. At the same time, practitioners and decision-makers have to be taught to go get the knowledge that will help them make decisions.

Practitioners also have to be educated so that they get into the habit of looking for knowledge. That works both ways. In addition, this network must give young researchers skills so that they can work with non-researchers. Traditionally, researchers have worked in their labs, whereas practitioners and politicians have worked in their offices. While they are young, we want them to be able to start acquiring work experience with individuals who practise a profession outside their field and discipline. That's an example.

That will start in March and will last five years. It's a pilot project. This is the first time the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada has done this on this scale.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you.