Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 14th, 2012

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Storseth. Your generosity is noted.

This is to either Mr. Lemieux or Ms. Bastien.

In your last example you were talking about the electrician. He comes back after four years with a back injury. I'm just curious if you keep statistics on this. What percentage of veterans who come back with back injuries would be approved? Is it 50%? It would be a difficult issue to determine, but very severe. It probably occurs quite frequently. What would that percentage be?

[Charlotte Bastien]

Of the top disability conditions under rehabilitation with current clients or veterans participating, number two is lumbar disc. There are 798 veterans who are admissible or participating in the rehabilitation program for that disability condition.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

This is my last question, and then I'll pass it over to Mr. Storseth.

Of those nearly 800 people who have been approved, how many would have applied? Would it be 2,500, 3,000? What would it be?

[Stéphane Lemieux]

I don't have that figure of how many. I know what you're looking for, but I don't think there's—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Is that figure available so that you'd be able to get back to the committee with it?

[Charlotte Bastien]

Yes, but I want to make sure I understand the question.

The number I just gave you, that's the people who have applied under the rehabilitation for that condition. But as to how many have a back problem and have applied and were refused, we'll have to look into it if to see if we have that figure and get back to you.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Perfect. Thanks for answering that question.

I would appreciate, though, following up on that, if you could let us know. Surely the department must have the number of people who are rejected on a yearly basis, and maybe even over the last five years would be interesting.

My question is following on the back of that, and I've asked this several times. We talk about the paperwork, and we just talked about how many members are rejected, and you don't have those numbers. The problem I have with it is when you're a serving member of the Canadian armed forces and you jump off the back of a one-tonne truck or you jump off the back of a tank or you're loading an F-18 and you hurt yourself, you don't stop, fill out your paperwork, and then proceed back with your job. You just continue on, you fight through it, and you get through the day.

At the end of the day, there seems to be a real lapse here when you start comparing guys who are then two or three years later or five or ten years later applying for disability or applying because they have these problems. And I've seen on my own dozens of cases where Veterans Affairs turns around and says they don't have the proper paperwork, so they're denied, and then they've got to go through the whole appeals process, which takes six to eight months.

What are we doing to better prepare guys for this and let them know that they have to make sure that they fill out the paperwork, at least at the end of the day? What's the awareness of this? Is Veterans Affairs looking at this? My personal opinion on it is that we should just be approving the guys, and the 3% or 4% who are maybe trying to abuse it, catch them after. At the end of the day, the way these guys are trained--as you would know, Mr. Lemieux--is not to just stop, turn around, and fill out the proper paperwork.

[Stéphane Lemieux]

First of all, DND is putting a lot of effort into making sure that personal administration is done properly. The army that I left a year and a half ago was doing the paperwork when people were getting injured, making sure that later on, if you do need that paperwork, it is done and it's there in your file. Plus, this is one of the points I passed on in the briefing that I give on the base and to the reserve unit to make sure that the paperwork is done. That's a personal responsibility, and it's a chain of command responsibility too, and I keep telling them to do it, to make sure that this doesn't happen. But in the past, you're right, the paperwork was not being filled out. We're working through these issues, but—

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

I don't mean to cut you off, but we're short on time.

We're working through the issues, I agree, but part of the issue is the bureaucracy that surrounds it. I've got to tell you, I've got a young man who was in a firefight in Afghanistan, and quite frankly he just didn't have time to turn around and do his paperwork when he got injured in the middle of the firefight. Now, because of that, he's being rejected for one of his injuries, but the other injury that happened in the same firefight he's getting compensation for. At the end of the day, it just doesn't make sense. At the bureaucratic level, we have to find a way to say yes to these guys, rather than trying to find a way to put them through more hoops. The answer for the vast majority of these guys should be yes right off the bat.

Sorry, that was more of a statement than it was a question, I guess.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

But you do want a response?

Do you care to respond?

[Charlotte Bastien]

First, I'd like to point out that on the disability award a favourable decision is a little more than 74% the first time around. Regarding the rehabilitation program, when it is a medical release it's automatically accepted or eligible for the rehabilitation program. Our experience also finds that for service-related--some of the examples here, and we'll get you the statistics--it's a very good statistic.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Just to get something written back, 74%. But how many then appeal and are getting approved after that? Because that's the problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Mr. Storseth, let them answer.

[Stéphane Lemieux]

For people who go on appeal, 75% get a favourable decision.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Seventy-five percent of appeals?

[Stéphane Lemieux]

Yes.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

So why wouldn't they have said yes in the first place? That's a huge number, isn't it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Could I interject? Do you want to try to correct that?

[Charlotte Bastien]

Unfortunately, there is information that was not necessarily always made available on the first application. When it's heard on the appeal, it's a little more, 25%. When they go in front of VRAB they usually have additional information, and 65% get a favourable decision. Usually it's because they had additional information that was not provided the first time around.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to say, as generous as Mr. Stoffer was in letting him go on a little longer with their time, I think we've pretty well run out of time.

I would like to say to the witnesses that we certainly appreciate your being here, and the presentation was good. I would point out, though, that you did offer to provide further information. I think there are a couple of those items that probably need a little more clarification, because there seemed to be some uncertainty on those couple of items. I just want to say thank you very much.

To the committee, I just want to point out that if you do not hear tomorrow about any confirmation of witnesses on Thursday, there will be no meeting on Thursday. We'll know in the morning.

Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.