Evidence of meeting #64 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Janick Lalonde  Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence
Rosanne Dornan  As an Individual
Steve Dornan  As an Individual

8:50 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Good morning, everyone. I see we have quorum this morning.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we continue with our study of depleted uranium and Canadian veterans. We are very proud today to have with us, from the Department of National Defence, Janick Lalonde, senior advisor on toxicology, forces health protection, with Canadian Forces Health Services.

Madame Lalonde, we're very pleased to have you here. Please speak en français ou en anglais, whatever you prefer. Then we'll have a round of questioning afterwards.

On behalf of the committee, thank you very much for coming this morning.

8:50 a.m.

Dr. Janick Lalonde Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

Thank you very much.

First of all, I would like to thank the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs for this invitation to come share with you my knowledge of depleted uranium. As a Canadian, as a member of the civil service and as a member of the team responsible for ensuring health services for the Canadian Forces, know that I take the well-being of the members of the Canadian Forces and its veterans seriously. As well, I would like to stress that, as a scientist, I am very much interested in the authenticity, accuracy and relevance of all scientific evidence submitted to me for study.

My academic life started at the University of Ottawa, where I obtained a bachelor of science, with a specialization in biology. During my post-graduate studies at the master and doctoral levels, I specialized in chemical and environmental toxicology, and more specifically on heavy metals, such as uranium. When I was doing my master’s degree at the University of Ottawa, I developed a probabilistic risk analysis method for determining the quantity of fish that can be consumed before reaching a level of heavy metals that would be considered harmful to human health. When doing my doctoral studies at the INRS, I studied analytical chemistry and the drinkability of water in order to quantify the extent of environmental contamination by heavy metals.

Following my graduate studies, I was hired by the Department of National Defence as an environmental toxicologist. I have now held the position of senior advisor in toxicology within the directorate of forces health protection of the Canadian Forces Health Services group for the last 10 years.

In this capacity I have the help of a multidisciplinary team, and we conduct environmental health risk assessment. The team includes industrial hygienists, physicians who specialize in occupational and environmental health, preventive medicine technicians, and members of the deployable health hazard assessment team. The expertise of this multidisciplinary team is further complemented by medical intelligence officers who monitor potential occupational and environmental hazards in the field.

Where Canadian Forces members deploy, the deployable health hazard assessment team also goes to take air, water, and soil samples that are analysed for the detection of a series of contaminants. Taking into account these results and assuming conservative exposure scenarios, we determine if soldiers are exposed to contaminants above levels that could affect their health.

These assessments are typically conservative, in that they assume worst-case scenario exposures to environmental contaminants. Using conservative assumptions reduces the likelihood of underestimating potential adverse health effects.

Through a memorandum of understanding with our allies, the environmental analyses conducted by the Canadian Forces are shared and compared with similar assessments carried out by our allies. In addition to receiving our allies' environmental assessments, we also monitor those carried out by credible international organizations, such as the United Nations Environment Programme, UNEP, and the World Health Organization. This sharing of information and review of the literature augments our environmental surveillance and provides us with the reassurance that we did not overlook potentially dangerous occupational and environmental issues.

Of all the environmental samples analysed to date, we have not found excessive environmental uranium levels in theatres of operation. Similar observations were made by our allies and with the UNEP's reports on the environmental and health threats of using depleted uranium munitions in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Serbia.

All three reports from the UNEP concluded that the use of depleted uranium munitions did not constitute a significant threat to either the environment or the local populations. The World Health Organization also concluded that depleted uranium is not a threat to the local population in countries where it has been used, and the biological monitoring of citizens living in the general proximity of depleted uranium munitions impaction sites is not necessary.

In addition to participating in these environmental assessments, I have been managing the Canadian Forces Voluntary Depleted Uranium Testing since 2005.

On February 7, 2000, the Minister of National Defence announced that the Canadian Forces would offer depleted uranium testing to any veteran or active member who asked for the assessment. This offer was made to address concerns from some soldiers deployed to areas where depleted uranium was used. An external accredited laboratory has conducted all uranium analyses for the Canadian Forces.

To date, more than 200 Canadian veterans of the Gulf War and of the Balkans peacekeeping operations took part in the voluntary depleted uranium testing. Total uranium levels were all found to be within the normal range, and the radioisotope analyses did not indicate significant depleted uranium exposure. The tests have found no evidence of increased uranium levels among Canadian Forces veterans of either the Gulf War or the Balkans peacekeeping missions. These results were published in a peer review journal, and a summary of the results are posted on the Canadian Forces Health Services website.

The results of the Canadian Forces depleted uranium testing indicate that Canadian Forces members were not exposed to high levels of depleted uranium, which is consistent with the results of our allies, including the United States, Belgium, France, and Germany. The only consistent reporting of positive depleted uranium testing is made in a cohort of U.S. Gulf War veterans who were victims of depleted uranium friendly fire during the Gulf War. Some of these veterans have in their bodies fragments of depleted uranium munitions and continue to excrete high uranium levels in their urine. Despite this degree of exposure, no clinically significant uranium-related health effects have been identified. No Canadian Forces members have been involved in depleted uranium friendly fire, so it follows that Canadian Forces members have not tested positive for depleted uranium.

The Veterans Affairs Scientific Advisory Committee invited me last year to present to them the results of the Canadian Forces voluntary depleted uranium testing. I was asked by the Scientific Advisory Committee to provide a short list of key references pertaining to potential environmental and health impacts of uranium. I was not, however, one of the external reviewers of the depleted uranium and veterans health report. Nonetheless, after having reviewed the report, I can say I concur with its key conclusions. I am also of the opinion that it is unlikely that Canadian Forces members have been exposed to levels of depleted uranium that could be harmful to their health.

Multiple expert medical and scientific panels have consistently concluded that depleted uranium does not pose a hazard to military personnel unless they are inside vehicles that are hit by depleted uranium munitions.

In summary, I would reiterate that it is unlikely that exposure to depleted uranium among members of the Canadian Forces would have been significant enough to cause health problems.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you very much for your presentation.

Now we'll go to five-minute questions. We alternate back and forth.

We'll start with Mr. Chicoine, please, for five minutes.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lalonde, for coming to testify before us today.

I would simply like to mention that this week Ms. Richard, who is a veteran, came to testify before this committee. According to her, further to the voluntary testing in 2000-2001, both companies apparently said they were unable to test the level of depleted uranium adequately.

Can you comment on this statement? Is it possible for this to be so and that these two firms did not perform adequate tests?

8:55 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

Dr. Janick Lalonde

No, actually, it was people from one particular laboratory, namely Activation Laboratory, who basically did the depleted uranium analyses. They were able to do total uranium tests on the one hand, and, on the other, tests pertaining to the various uranium radioisotopes in order to determine whether exposure was from depleted uranium or uranium from a natural source. These studies were published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. In other words, it was reviewed by other scientists working in similar areas.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Thank you.

For some time, in the 1990s, it was thought that depleted uranium could affect people’s health and be the cause of illnesses suffered by our military personnel on their return from operations. In particular, many suffered from what was called Gulf War syndrome. Many tests were done therefore to prove that depleted uranium was not the cause. In fact that was the conclusion of all the studies.

Has anyone begun to look into what might be other sources of these health problems? Have any tests begun in this connection?

8:55 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

Dr. Janick Lalonde

I would like to begin by saying that I am not testifying here today in order to say that Gulf War syndrome does not exist. We have seen what the witnesses said in this regard. I think we are more or less agreed. Some military personnel were not in good shape on their return from deployment. That was absolutely so.

As for a possible cause, I am sorry, but I cannot help you on that subject. However, I definitely know that attributing the cause of these problems to depleted uranium is mistaken.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

All the witnesses have told us they did not know if there were other studies into possible causes. The studies conclude, if not certainly, then very probably, that the cause of the health problems is not depleted uranium.

In your opinion, is it important to know what the cause of Gulf War syndrome is? In fact, health problems appeared not only after that war, but in later conflicts too. Many veterans come home with health problems, but the causes are not known. I find it a bit worrying that no one is looking into the cause of these health problems.

8:55 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

Dr. Janick Lalonde

I think that studying potential causes has to be important. Looking at treatments that might be effective is, to my mind, another way of finding answers.

9 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Thank you.

I turn then to the question of vaccination.

Ms. Richard told us that, when she was deployed during the Gulf War, she received a whole series of vaccinations that were not documented.

Can you tell us why they were not documented? Did the Canadian Forces have something to hide?

9 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

Dr. Janick Lalonde

I am not aware of this. Vaccination is not at all my area of expertise.

9 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Ms. Richard said that people had been let go from the Department of National Defense after receiving an incorrect diagnosis or without receiving one at all. People were left to their own devices and had to find doctors outside the Forces: specialists, therapists, psychiatrists and so on. According to her, when doctors diagnosed and corroborated their health problems, Veterans Affairs Canada had the nerve to call into question their diagnoses, their treatments and their qualifications. She said that Veterans Affairs dictated to them the number of treatments they could receive and the distances they could go to document their claims and that policy always trumped the needs of sick veterans.

Can you comment briefly on Ms. Richard’s words?

9 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

Dr. Janick Lalonde

I cannot make any comments on the policies of Veterans Affairs Canada, but I can assure you that, regardless of the diagnosis and the reason for the ills suffered by members of the Canadian Forces, the group in charge of health services within the Canadian Forces treats them properly. It does not depend on the diagnosis or causes associated with it. The treatment is what counts.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you, Dr. Lalonde and Mr. Chicoine.

We now move on to Mr. Zimmer, please, for five minutes.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Thank you, Doctor, for your presentation today.

I'd also like to thank all the veterans who are in the room today for your service to Canada. We definitely appreciate it.

Starting off, in your opinion, what can be learned from the results of the study we just went over?

9 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

Dr. Janick Lalonde

It's that depleted uranium is not likely the cause of adverse health effects within the Canadian Forces members who were deployed.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Right. If you don't mind, do you have the conclusions in front of you, our seven conclusions? If we can go through them step by step, could you just give your opinion on those.

9 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

Dr. Janick Lalonde

I have them in French, but that should be fine.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

That's okay, as long as translation works. Do you want me to read out the conclusion and then you respond?

9 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

Dr. Janick Lalonde

Sure. Yes, please.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Number one:

Depleted uranium (DU) is potentially harmful to human health by virtue of its chemical and radiological effects.

9 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

Dr. Janick Lalonde

Absolutely, I agree.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Number two:

Within a military setting, the highest risk of exposure to depleted uranium is in those who were: in, on, or near vehicles hit with friendly fire; entering or near these burning vehicles; near fires involving DU munitions; salvaging damaged vehicles; or involved in clean up operations of contaminated sites.

9 a.m.

Senior Advisor, Toxicology, Forces Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services, Department of National Defence

9 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Number three:

It is unlikely that Canadian soldiers have been exposed to levels of depleted uranium which could be harmful to their health.