Evidence of meeting #15 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was street.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Medric Cousineau  Captain (Retired), As an Individual
Barry Yhard  National Executive Director, National Executive Board of Directors, Veterans Emergency Transition Services

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Did you miss all of the—

4:15 p.m.

Captain (Retired), As an Individual

Medric Cousineau

The last part, I did.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Okay.

Do you want to go back a bit and highlight just the last part?

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Just the last part? You missed the last part of the...?

4:15 p.m.

Captain (Retired), As an Individual

March 4th, 2014 / 4:15 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Okay.

Like I said, I was reading what Mr. O'Toole said last week about the lump sum and the payments for transition. He made a link between those things.

He said, and I will read the last part:

[...] veterans' independence program supports within their own home, often, depending on their status [...] long term lifetime assistance with home-based modification needs, health... None of those are available in a civil court context veterans will receive [...]

Mr. O'Toole seemed to say that the lump sums granted by civil courts is superior to what Veterans Affairs Canada offers. He said that in order to make an adequate comparison, one would have to add the other services offered by the department, a statement with which I of course do not agree. Indeed, the rationale behind that comment is that one can combine non-monetary compensation offered because of suffering with financial aid. This has nothing to do with the lump sum issue.

According to Mr. O'Toole, the government will not be increasing the lump sum, but it will offer other services which will have to be taken into account. He stated that overall the current sum was adequate.

I feel like I'm watching a bad translation of the film Back to the Future and that we are going back to a time before the Dennis Manuge case, when all these things were lumped together. I do not think that this is how things should be done.

The issue of the lump sum is distinct from these other services, it has nothing to do with compensation. It should have no repercussions on the sum offered for that purpose.

Moreover, the government often adds up the lump sum and the SISIP compensation payments. However, Veterans Affairs Canada does not offer compensation for the loss a limb. There is compensation which members of the forces pay for out of their own salary deductions, to a group insurance plan. I think it is important that this be mentioned at this point in the study.

As for the matter of the other services offered by civil courts, this is a red herring, in my opinion. I checked myself with the Quebec workmen's compensation commission, and I was told that in the case of a worker who is injured, that person receives compensation for losses or suffering. The commission also offers transition services to those who can no longer do the same work. However, there is no link between the two. I think consequently that the government is mistaken when it says that all of these amounts should be combined and that the lump sum should not be increased.

What do you think of all that?

4:20 p.m.

Captain (Retired), As an Individual

Medric Cousineau

The lump sum payment, if it was purely for pain and suffering alone and deemed to be that, as I mentioned earlier, I'm still a proponent. When somebody is injured in service to this country, the country's obligation to them does not end. Where does it end? If you're trying to say that we're going to....

You see, there's a problem with the lump sum. You have two people, one of them is 25, and the other person is 55. You establish that both of them are at 40% disability and you're going to award them x as a lump sum. The lump sum is derived through an insurance company formulation. Where are the mortality statistics? Why are those statistics not made public? When the lump sum was originally dreamt up there was a mortality table. Every insurance company uses those numbers to derive benefits and payouts, so where is the number? The only way you can arrive at statistically smaller numbers for lump sum payouts on a disability chart is to have a decreased mortality. What that implies is that whoever developed that chart is banking on our veterans checking out early.

It's not nice, is it?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Thank you, Captain Cousineau.

I know Mr. Chicoine used a fair amount of time to get his question out, but Mr. Yhard, if you have a brief response as well, it would be welcome.

4:25 p.m.

National Executive Director, National Executive Board of Directors, Veterans Emergency Transition Services

Barry Yhard

The amount of the lump sum payment is really for my purposes today of little consequence. The lump sum payment for me today is the fact that it is a contributing factor to someone becoming homeless, the way that it's administered to somebody so that they, in their spending habits.... That's a contributing factor to becoming homeless.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lizon, please, you have six minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for coming here. I thank you for your service.

I was going to actually ask a different question, but I'll make a short comment.

I understand that there is a problem in how the lump sum payment is viewed by different people. In addition to what you said, Mr. Yhard, I think the reasons people become homeless or run into problems are much more complex. Addiction is a terrible thing that happens, and people who have that problem should be identified and addiction should be dealt with, because you know what, it doesn't really matter whether people get a lump sum or a monthly cheque. I've seen it. People who have addiction problems—their monthly cheque will be spent in two minutes. They will have no money and they will go on and on. Unless the problem is addressed, it will never end. That's my comment.

But the question, Mr. Yhard, I want to ask you is this. From your experience, if you can tell this committee about services provided by Veterans Affairs for their clients, what is the biggest complaint or complaints you hear about delivery of services from people who come to you? What changes should we make to provide better support for those who need it?

4:25 p.m.

National Executive Director, National Executive Board of Directors, Veterans Emergency Transition Services

Barry Yhard

I'll apologize in advance for saying “homeless” again. The people who we deal with, our clients, are a very narrow demographic of the entire veterans issue. So our people have become homeless, and the problems they have with the services that are available is that they can't access them because they're in the street.

Once we get them back in touch with Veterans Affairs—and it's not always Veterans Affairs. Sometimes it's the Legion, sometimes it's social services in a local community. But once we get them back in touch with the system, if you want to call it that, they normally benefit from it. I'm not here to say what's right or wrong with Veterans Affairs and the way they administer the program. But I can say that once our clients finally get in touch with Veterans Affairs or the Legion, they usually see a positive gain in their lifestyle.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Basically what I was trying to get at is if there is a complaint, if there is a better way to provide services by Veterans Affairs, the committee would like to hear it, because it would make appropriate recommendations.

4:25 p.m.

National Executive Director, National Executive Board of Directors, Veterans Emergency Transition Services

Barry Yhard

I don't have a better way for you to provide....

Medric?

4:25 p.m.

Captain (Retired), As an Individual

Medric Cousineau

Currently the structure with the case manager model, who is the one-on-one with our most seriously injured.... Unfortunately, as in anywhere, it's a bit of a crapshoot. If you get a good case manager—and God help my family if I lose the one I have because, as I say, I will tell you right now and I've mentioned it before, she has been the best thing that's happened in a long time. But there are others who are not as fortunate and you will hear those horror stories. I don't know how we deal with the human shortcoming that some are better than others. I'm not sure.

But the model has flaws also, because there are customer service agents you deal with on the front lines. Last fall, as the committee may be aware, I did a little bit of a walk, 1,065 kilometres over 50 days. A customer service agent phoned my house in the middle of that walk and found out I wasn't there, and cut off one of my benefits because I was not there. My case manager knew where I was. When I returned and talked to my case manager, it took her about two months to get it sorted out. At that particular point in time my observation to her was, “You knew where I was, but the grass didn't stop growing at my house.” That was an unfortunate circumstance.

Now how that happens, I don't know. My case manager is supposed to be the prima facie, the one—she's God—and somebody else on the other phone just turned stuff off on her. How does that happen? I don't know. That's a problem within Veterans Affairs that needs to be addressed.

The service delivery standard, when it works well, it really works. The problem is that those are exceptions rather than the rule, and that's unfortunate.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Do I have any time left?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

It would have to be a one-word question, a quick question.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

A very quick question....

Mr. Yhard, can you tell us how your staff is trained and volunteers are trained?

4:30 p.m.

National Executive Director, National Executive Board of Directors, Veterans Emergency Transition Services

Barry Yhard

Volunteers are all military, retired military, RCMP, and retired RCMP. They bring with them a skill set that we need in terms of management, of interaction with people at risk. Informally we have their own program that we ask people to participate in. It's contact training mostly.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Thank you very much for the answers.

We now go to Mr. Galipeau for six minutes, please.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Royal Galipeau Conservative Ottawa—Orléans, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Chair, i have a point of order.

Could I flag something to you with the clerk? I understand that there's supposed to be a dress code in our committee when we get the floor. Would you address that, please?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

I'll address that by saying you raise a concern that you don't have a tie on. You have that advisory going forward, but certainly I'd ask you to go ahead and ask your questions today, please.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Royal Galipeau Conservative Ottawa—Orléans, ON

Chair, I've just come from a hospital bed.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

I understand. I think the committee is quite prepared to let the member go ahead.

Mr. Karygiannis, you can sit there and fume all you want. We're here to ask questions of the witnesses.