Veterans Affairs Committee on March 6th, 2014

[Gordon Moore]

They make sure he's coming back and he's able to.... But once they get him back to Canada, and for instance, he leaves the hospital here in Ottawa and they're sending him home, that's where the ball drops.

Of course, he's not treated the same way a regular force member is. If you take a look under Bill C-55, a private, for example, is guaranteed a minimum $40,000 taxable. For a reservist, it's $24,000. That's the inequity we're talking about. We want to make sure they're both treated the same, because they've done the same job.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I agree with that.

You have chapter 1 and chapter 2, and you hope that this is chapter 3. It needs to be a continuous process. We need to adapt. Circumstances change and demographics have changed drastically.

Mr. White, I'll go back to you for a second. We talked about who should do a review and so on, and whether it should be this committee. If we were to do that on a continuous basis, this committee would not be able to do anything else. Who would you see doing that review?

Anybody can answer that.

[Brad White]

First, what we provided you with here is something that we drafted up for our members. This is what we sent out to our members through Legion Magazine to make sure they were educated about what was involved with the new Veterans Charter, because we saw too many times that people did not understand what the charter was. We wanted our members to understand.

This material's dated. I mean, chapter 1 is way back when, when we first started the game here, and it hasn't been updated since then.

In the issue of a review type of process, I agree that it's probably not the committee that has to conduct that review. It certainly has to be a consultation process with the department, probably with the involvement of both DND and VAC with representatives from groups, from the medical authorities, and all the specialists that are treating and using people these day. They need to come together, as used to happen with the New Veterans Charter Advisory Group. That put forward a lot of those recommendations that are there now. If you have that type of a consultation process, review process, continually ongoing, then—

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Maybe under the sponsorship, if you will, of VAC, but bringing in the various—

[Brad White]

Very much so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Okay, thank you. We're well over six minutes. We're intrigued but we're out of time, unfortunately.

So I'll go now to Mr. Rafferty for six minutes.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here.

Thank you guests and veterans for being here.

I was very pleased with everything you've had to say today and the points you brought forth—in particular, support for families. I do have some questions about that, but I may not get to them.

I also have concerns about communication. We have seen some things change and you say—in particular, Mr. Moore—the government needs to review the accessibility to these programs and ensure front-line staff are available and knowledgeable to assist veterans and their families. This must not be a self-serve system.

I held some town hall meetings. Peter Stoffer was with me a few weeks ago in Thunder Bay, and of course you know an office has closed there. A woman stood up who was from one of the Legion branches in Thunder Bay and said she came because she just received a phone call from Service Canada asking her to give money to a veteran. That's one thing.

Then she went on to say that George, a Second World War veteran—an unrelated case—tried to sort his way through the website, which he couldn't. He eventually called the 800 number and he got through after some waiting. He needed help with some paperwork being filled out. He went to the Service Canada office, as the 800 number person told him to, and he got there and they simply said they don't do that there. They sent him to the Legion.

The woman from the Legion was saying they're volunteers; they do the best they can. Many Legions across the country are struggling and so they can't do it.

I just want to point out that the minister himself is acutely aware of what's happening here. In the report on plans and priorities, 2014-15, the minister says:

The primary risk being mitigated by the Department is that the modernization of VAC's service delivery model will not be achieved as expected, and will not meet the needs of Veterans, Canadian Armed Forces members, and their families.

He goes on to say:

...there is a risk that quality service delivery could be affected due to VAC’s increasing reliance on partners and service providers in the federal, provincial and municipal governments as well as private sector.

As I read this, and as I recounted the couple of cases to you, it occurs to me that in the charter it does say that veterans have a right to be treated with respect, dignity, fairness, and courtesy. I wonder if any or either of you would like to make a comment on either what I just said or where you see this heading and how the Veterans Charter is in fact being contravened, in my opinion.

[Gordon Jenkins]

I think a common theme that we've heard this afternoon is one of communications, the breakdown of communications, and the complexity of the communications. You alluded to that, but there's a third area, and that's the regulations, the forms, the 18-page forms. DND can interpret a regulation differently from Veterans Affairs. The complexity of it, asking an 80-year-old or 90-year-old to get on the web page and find information.... I think the big challenge is how we improve—what you're getting at—communications. It's not just communications with the veteran but the veteran and his family.

Now, I was in a special duty area. I left my wife for a year and when I came back I converted to the public service. During that whole year, there was no communication with my wife whatsoever by the Canadian Forces. When I became a veteran, as Brad mentioned, the transfer over from DND to Veterans Affairs had to be the most complex, convoluted, step-by-step procedure: phone this office, fill out that form. You just wouldn't believe it.

So I guess what you're looking at, and Percy has alluded to it too, is communications with the veteran and the veteran's family. I believe the Veterans Bill of Rights states that the family has to be present anyway, so please, listen to that. Listen about the communications. It is breaking down. It's getting more complex, and when I speak to the ombudsman, he tells me that most of the complaints and most of the demands for services are already covered. Veterans just haven't been able to find them in all the regulations.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins.

I know Mr. Price would like to say something, but perhaps you would like to say something from the Legion also.

[Gordon Moore]

Thank you. At some time I'd like to meet the lady you mentioned from Thunder Bay and thank her personally for looking after that veteran.

As I mentioned earlier, because of the office closures, and Thunder Bay was one of those offices, we're reaching out to our branches to ask them now, until such time as the government is able to come through with the staff and the right amount of money—if that will ever happen—to make sure that our veterans' needs are looked after.

This is why, as I said well over an hour ago, the Royal Canadian Legion was formed in 1926 by veterans for veterans. As an organization, as we move into the 21st century, we're getting more vocal in what we do and how we do it. We are making sure that our branches are fully aware of the issues around veterans and why they should be filling out the forms. I believe that if Veterans Affairs can't do their job, we have paid professional service officers across this country. We're going to overwork them, there's no question, and the burnout is going to be high, but we are going to be able to be there for them. But Veterans Affairs has to step to the table at some point in time and make sure that they have enough staff to look after our veterans and their families. The big key here is the families. Make sure that the families are involved in every issue with veterans.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Mr. Price.

[Percy Price]

Thank you. At this given time, a veteran receives one letter a year. It's called QOL, quality of life, and it asks questions. Has your disability deteriorated? What's your family doing? How are they doing?

But do you know something? Those veterans never send them back, and I say that if Veterans Affairs do not hear a reply within 60 days, a red light should come on and something should be done.

You asked, sir, what will happen if VAC slackens off with the delivery service and communication with our veterans; it's going to be chaos. It's going to be disastrous, and I'm happy to hear from the Dominion president that the Legion's service officers across the country will step in and take up some of the slack. But he still expects VAC to do what they're responsible for and obligated to do for our veterans.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lizon.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses and welcome. Thank you for your service, veterans, guests. Thank you for your service and welcome here.

On the same note on the service delivery, I understand, Mr. Jenkins, that you are concerned about old people being unaware, but some do and some don't. Some need help and some do get help. The same applies to people who have to travel to the office. Some, if they don't have a family, if they don't have anybody, even if the office was open, they couldn't travel there anyway. Therefore, every situation is individual and they should be looked at individually.

The way we communicate today is much different from when I grew up, even. In most cases when I wanted to talk to someone I had to walk. Now everybody has devices and gadgets all over the place. Therefore, I think a time of adjustment has to kick in. People will adjust to a new way of communicating, a new way of doing things. However, for those who are unable to do it, I agree that they do need help and that help should come. That's why we're here. We are here to serve veterans who are not here and that's why we're doing this review.

I would like to ask the Royal Canadian Legion, to switch gears a little bit, about the services the Legion provides for families. What changes in the charter should be made to serve veterans' families best?

[Brad White]

May I sum up a whole bunch of things? They are communications, outreach, and accessibility. If we can tackle those three issues, then we can tackle the other problems we have with the new Veterans Charter.

When you're talking about what kind of outreach we do for families, I'll get to that, but first off and so that you know, we have sent a letter to every reserve unit across this country informing them of what services are available from the Royal Canadian Legion as far as benevolence and benefits are concerned. We've offered them a briefing on what we can do for them and we're reaching out to all those people to make sure they understand what the system is.

We're also going to all of the SCAN seminars that we can, to make sure that those people retiring, either medically or as regular retirement from the Canadian forces, are aware of what some of the benefits that they have are.

As an example of what we provide to families, in Edmonton, and maybe Mr. Hawn will know this, but through the Military Family Resource Centre at the base in Edmonton, the Royal Canadian Legion sponsored a program that was called children of parents with trauma. It is the family that's important here. We've raised that issue a couple of times. They're the ones who are staying home. They're the ones suffering when the individual comes home because the individual is suffering. In many cases it's the family member who actually brings the member forward to get the assistance because they've had enough of living through the problems that are being created in the home because somebody is suffering from an OSI or has a physical injury.

Through the programs that we're starting up we're sponsoring as much as we can in the military family resource systems, so they understand what the information is that's available for them. This program was trialed up in Edmonton at the base and is now in Gagetown as well. We're opening up the doors so we can actually assist families and see what they need.

As well, we have access to our poppy funds. Our poppy funds are accessible for serving members and their families to make sure they get the assistance they need. Of course, they go through the process of due diligence to make sure that the requirement is there and we can assist families in their time of need.

Those are some of the things that we have on the books right now.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Would anybody like to add anything to that, on the recommendations for the Veterans Charter to best serve military families?

[Percy Price]

I believe that the Legion has hit the nail on the head. Communications is the one, and indeed, dealing directly with the spouse of that veteran and dealing with the dependants, because that's where it's missing right now, whether it's because of staff within DVA, the lessening of members. They do a good job, but if they're overloaded. We can't blame the staff within the district offices or regional offices, or whatever. Again, if they're overloaded, they can't do their job, and the veteran will suffer.

As for dealing directly with the veteran, whether it's out in the boondocks or in a city, it has to be corrected, and corrected immediately. We have a tendency to deal with the higher part and we often forget about the grassroots. It's the makeup of us.

It appears to me that now the department has not totally...but if you read the recent Legion Magazine, which I highly respect, I think it says that the veterans are poorly served. This is an attendant document, and when you see 40% of veterans being poorly served, that is scary. I hope that the minister has a copy of this on his desk, and every member of Parliament. They should read it before they go to bed and read it when they get up. When I read it, I couldn't sleep all night because it's scary.

Our veterans are very important.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

You have three seconds left, but I'll say thank you for your input.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I could make a quick comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

You can't because one of the witnesses would like to comment further, I believe.

[Gordon Jenkins]

Of course, if we go back to the last meeting, you asked the same question. I bet if you look down at your notepads—and I guess we're coming to the end right now—you'll find a common theme from this end of the table, and interestingly enough, from the questions from your end. You've heard the word—I bet it's on your pad—“communications”, a little note. You've heard “families”, and more interest in the families. You'll have heard about the overload at Veterans Affairs. You'll hear of the Legion literally stepping in to help, and you'll have heard of the complexity and how all these problems, if you list them down, are all connected. They're all connected.

Hopefully, that's a summary from our end. I don't know if the Legion has any closing....

[A voice]

That's good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

No? Okay.

By the way, you're right, communication is something we've talked about quite a bit in recent weeks and we'll be talking more about it. Speaking of which, if you have further comments or views that you'd like to express or send along, please feel free to send them along in writing, because certainly we'd include them in our consideration as well.

[Gordon Jenkins]

We appreciate that offer to elaborate on a broad question and help narrow it down. That's a very positive approach.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

They all have their hands up. You are all wound up here today.

I just want to say that anything that comes in should come to the clerk, please.

We're not going to let Mr. Jenkins have the last word. I see Mr. Price and Mr. Moore, please.