House of Commons Hansard #78 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was workers.

Topics

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension Act, 1994Government Orders

1:50 p.m.

An hon. member

No.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension Act, 1994Government Orders

1:50 p.m.

Reform

Elwin Hermanson Reform Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK

Madam Speaker, no. We want to either resume debate or give the hon. member the chance to ask a question. I think we are about two minutes away from private members' business. Rather than launching into my speech and only getting two minutes into it, if the hon. member had another question I would gladly defer to him.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension Act, 1994Government Orders

1:50 p.m.

An hon. member

No.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension Act, 1994Government Orders

1:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

Is the House ready for the question?

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension Act, 1994Government Orders

1:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension Act, 1994Government Orders

1:50 p.m.

Reform

Elwin Hermanson Reform Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK

Madam Speaker, today I am rising to speak about the changes that the other place is proposing to Bill C-18. I am glad we have a chance to revisit the issue.

Bill C-18, as it was originally envisioned by the government, was a very serious breach of the fundamental principles of democracy, namely preventing the intervention of political parties in the design, conduct and outcome of elections in Canada.

The electoral process in Canada is probably the most fair, unbiased and most professional in the world. Our electoral process is not perfect and I hope we will have the opportunity to discuss some improvements at a later date.

The intent of Bill C-18 not only threatens the non-partisan aspect of our democratic process but it jeopardizes the reputation that Canada enjoys internationally as a country that can be counted on to set high standards of impartiality in regard to the electoral process. Witness that Canada is very often called on to supervise or observe elections around the world. The Ukrainian and South African elections are two recent examples of this.

I cannot emphasize enough the damage that would be done to Canada's international reputation if Bill C-18 were to have passed in its original form. It should obvious that Reformers were correct in their analysis of the bill. The government should have accepted our amendments.

The reasons why this bill had to be-

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension Act, 1994Government Orders

1:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

It being 1.54 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

1:50 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

moved that Bill C-243, an Act to amend the Department of Labour Act (eligibility for assistance for long-service employees), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Madam Speaker, I will start by saying that since I had the pleasure of being elected to this House to represent the people of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, I never felt so strongly that I was speaking on a subject that is important for Montreal. It is important for Montreal, of course, but for other places as well, because the main purpose of the bill before hon. members of this House is to correct a terrible form of discrimination suffered by workers in Montreal and elsewhere.

I will have an opportunity to explain this discrimination in detail. First, with your permission, I would like to remind those listening to us this afternoon about POWA. This is not the first time that we have discussed POWA in this House. Members previously elected to Parliament, including the members for Saint-Léonard, Saint-Denis and Westmount-Saint-Henri, spoke many times in the past to call strongly for major improvements to POWA.

I am therefore pleased to speak because I agree with what my hon. colleagues said in the past. POWA is a federal-provincial agreement, financed 70 per cent by the central government and 30 per cent by the participating provinces. It seeks to compen-

sate and provide income support for laid-off workers. As you know, in these tough economic times, there are many lay-offs.

The joint federal-provincial agreement on POWA sets forth some criteria for workers to qualify. The agreement provides that workers will be eligible depending on the size of the municipality or community in which the company is located.

Let me give you the example of Montreal. When people are laid off in the Greater Montreal, something which has occurred a number of times in the past, the agreement provides that, to be eligible for POWA, a minimum of 100 workers must have been laid off. This is the first condition.

Consequently, before a worker can be eligible for the program on an individual basis, some important collective considerations related to the major change occurring, will determine whether that worker is eligible or not.

The second condition to qualify is that 8 per cent of laid off workers must be 55 or over. In Montreal, this criteria does not present great problems, compared to the rule requiring that a minimum of 100 workers be laid off. I will come back to this later on.

The Program for Older Worker Adjustment has been in existence since 1989. Quebec and seven other provinces have signed this agreement, which replaces the former Work Adjustment Training program, or WAT, more specifically targeted to the furniture industry and other traditional sectors. The proposed bill-and I point it out, because I feel it is important to do so-is designed to correct a terrible form of discrimination against urban centres with a population of over 500,000, including Montreal.

It is important to keep in mind this basic and unavoidable reality to understand what is going on in Montreal and what conditions must be met by a Montreal worker to be eligible in case of a mass lay-off-which, as you know, is a breach of contract on the employer's part-including the condition to the effect that at least 100 workers must have been laid off.

If you look at the lay-offs which have occurred in the recent past in Montreal, you see that they took place in very specific industries-textile, clothing and retail-which, of course, are not the only ones in trouble, but are nevertheless experiencing particular problems due to national and international factors.

I point this out is because between 70 and 80 per cent of these industries-textile, clothing and retail-are concentrated in Montreal. This is particularly true for the textile and clothing industries which, as you will recall, underwent a first stage of industrialization. When selecting a site for their facilities, this being one of the location factors to use an economic expression, most textile and clothing industries chose Montreal. This is why 70 to 80 per cent of those industries are now concentrated in the Montreal region. And this is where the problem lies since, on average, textile and clothing industries have 20, 25 or 30 employees.

It is so true-and I will have the opportunity to come back to this issue later-that 78 per cent of all requests submitted last year under POWA in the Montreal area were turned down, because workers were not eligible. And because this program is particularly unsuitable to the traditional industries and harmful to Montreal workers, a consensus was reached, a rare feat in our political system, and the Liberal Party in Quebec, through Mr. Bourbeau, formerly the minister of manpower, now the minister of finance, expressed its wish for a review of the program in order to bring the minimum of 100 down to 20. The Quebec government, first under Mr. Bourassa and now under Mr. Johnson, expressed its desire that this program be modified.

The same wish was expressed by the mayor of Montreal, the major central labour bodies and all the people who are somewhat concerned by Montreal's economic development and the minimum social justice workers are entitled to expect and who have noticed some problems with POWA. In a rare show of unanimity, all parties involved called for changes to this program.

And yet, this is the second version of POWA. A first agreement was signed in 1988 and renegotiated last year by the previous government, which was not, of course, a Liberal government. The Conservative government did not yield to all the demands of these people who know better than anybody else the real problems of Montreal's workers.

I have very concrete figures that will show to our colleagues how this POWA program is not suitable for Montreal's workers. The proof is that, in 1993-94, in the clothing industry, 75 businesses qualified, which means that their employees were eligible, and exactly 359 companies did not qualify because of the minimum of 100 workers.

Thus, there were four times more businesses that did not qualify than those that did, even if there were massive lay-offs. Four times more businesses could not ensure income support for their workers-I remind you that these workers are 55 years of age and more who have given 20, 25, 30 years of their lives to the labour force, the labour market, and their community-because of a stupid criterion which is not adapted to the situation in Montreal.

The same is true for the business sector. As you know, one of the realities of our modern economies is that the tertiary sector is becoming the main production sector and, in Montreal, according to the figures available for 1993-94, 41 commercial

businesses were declared eligible under POWA while 139 did not qualify.

So, three times more companies and three times more workers were excluded than included. That is nonsense and, out of consideration for the workers, the situation must be corrected. I repeat, because it cannot be overemphasized, all concerned agree. It is wrong for a worker in a desperate situation, which often may have drastic consequences over which he has no control, like a massive lay-off, to have to go through an eligibility determination process. His eligibility should not be based on the size of the municipality in which he lives.

The case of Steinberg shows how absurd these criteria are. We are all familiar with this case and we remember that workers in 13 of the 28 stores that should have qualified under POWA were in fact excluded. In the case of Steinberg, there is another factor that should be mentioned, namely that we were in a situation where there were two categories of employers.

Despite the fact that Steinberg was a chain that had various stores across Quebec, you will see, Madam Speaker, how absurd the situation was regarding the eligibility under POWA and you will feel sad about it. It is a situation that has to change. So, according to the criteria used, it was possible for a person who worked in a Steinberg store in Ville d'Anjou to qualify under POWA, whereas another Steinberg employee who worked in a Montreal store could be excluded.

You did not misunderstand, Madam Speaker. It was the same corporate organization, with the same employer, the same technologies, the same collective agreement, and the same supervision system, and we ended up with a totally unacceptable situation where workers were divided into two groups, with some people being excluded and others included. That is unacceptable from the point of view of social rights.

Why? Because, once more, eligibility depends on the size of the municipality where the production unit is located. Let us take the Steinberg situation. In the case of laid-off workers in Saint-Jérôme, there had to be 40 workers eligible to POWA if individual workers were to be compensated.

And for the same company, the same production unit, the same technology, and the same producer, if you were working for Steinberg in Longueuil, but still for the same company, the number of laid-off workers was 80 to become eligible.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:10 p.m.

An hon. member

Twenty in Ville d'Anjou.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:10 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Twenty in Ville d'Anjou. Furthermore, we hear about an opting out agreement which reminds us a lot of the Conservative regime, characterized by nepotism, favouritism and insensitivity to workers.

This reality does not concern only Montreal. It is my duty, as the member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, to speak of the situation in Montreal. But I asked our colleagues in the Reform Party to come up with some figures for their provinces and I got some more figures for other provinces which have more traditional sectors and are concerned with major economic changes.

You will be surprised to hear this, but I have figures for Nova Scotia. In Nova Scotia, according to the latest figures available, ten businesses obtained their certificate of compliance for POWA and 36 were excluded, also on the basis of the number of laid-off workers.

The same thing happened in Ontario, a somewhat more dynamic region, the country's industrial heartland, where 184 lay-offs were certified in 1993-94, and the workers in 663 companies were excluded. I must remind the House that workers are eligible on a collective basis before being eligible on an individual basis.

That is to say that there is something in this program that must be reviewed. For my part, I have been speaking on that matter for a long time. You know, in politics, we develop a special interest for some matters; for me, it was POWA, because I am from a mostly working-class neighbourhood.

As a matter of fact, I made several representations to my colleagues from the Liberal Party and the Reform Party to whom I want to address my thanks for their co-operation; I think we are going to agree that some amendments are needed.

In fairness, I do not want to leave our viewers with the impression that we are the first to address this issue. MPs in the previous Parliament, particularly the Liberals when they were sitting on this side, also called for amendments to the agreement on POWA on several occasions. And if it is not against our Standing Orders, I would like to quote one our most distinguished colleagues, the member for Saint-Léonard, that we are delighted to see participate in today's debate. I know that we share the same views on this issue and I am very pleased about that, because he also represents the Montreal region and I know he is sensitive to the reality of non-eligible workers.

In short, let me quote some of his most famous words: "Mr. Speaker, under Standing Order 36, I have the pleasure to table a petition signed by 2,657 Canadians who call upon the government to amend the regulations concerning the Program for Older Worker Adjustment.

As you know, in the metropolitan region, those employed by companies of less of 100 employees are not eligible. It is a case of discrimination-this is the term used by the hon. member for Saint-Léonard-when we know that in Canada, 98 per cent of companies are small and medium-sized firms with less than 100 employees".

What are our chances of getting his support in this very important matter for the workers of Montreal and to what extent can he have some influence within his government? I can talk in a non-partisan way because this is a question which concerns all members of Parliament. Whether we are members of the

Reform Party, the Bloc or even the government, we all know what it means to lose one's job at 55 years of age. Disruptions can happen in our economic community over which we have no control.

At 55, after having devoted one's life to a job-but you are not of that generation, you are a young woman-workers have given 20, 25 or even 30 years to the job market. We have no right to leave these people without adequate financial protection. I see that the hon. member for Saint-Léonard is nodding in agreement.

Such is the intention of the bill. There is nothing complicated in what we are saying, nothing original, I admit. We are saying what the Liberals said before us, what Quebecers are saying through their minister of finance, Mr. Bourbeau, and through the mayor of Montreal, and what the labour confederations are asking for. What we are saying is that Montreal's work environment does not prepare workers who could be laid off in the sectors which are more likely to be affected.

It is in this context that I ask today, innocently but with enthusiasm, the consent of the House to put the following motion. I move, seconded by the member for Bourassa:

That Bill C-243 presented in my name, be deemed read for the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development.

I conclude by mentioning that I am convinced this bill must be examined by a committee. I want to let the government know that I am open-minded. I am willing to change my mind if some dimensions of the debate have escaped me. I am open-minded and I know the members are sensitive to the reality faced by Montreal workers. I am confident they will give the necessary consent in this matter.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

The House has heard the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion?

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

There is no unanimous consent.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

Alfonso Gagliano Liberal Saint-Léonard, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to take part in this important debate, because I find it essential, as the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve mentioned in his speech, where he quoted one of my most famous statements-I was not aware that I was now famous-and read a petition containing more than 2,000 names. So, for information purposes and for the record, let me add that I tabled more than 5,000 petitions concerning the Program for Older Worker Adjustment, or POWA.

For the benefit of our viewers and listeners, I will describe the program. It is intended for 55-year-old workers who lose their jobs following massive lay-offs. These last few years, God knows there have been quite a few of those. In the past, as the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve mentioned, we had a program to assist older workers from special sectors, whether it be the textile, clothing or footwear sector. The program often allowed exceptions depending on the community or the number of the lay-offs.

After the change in government and with evolving economic conditions, the Tories abolished the program and introduced a new one involving the provinces. POWA did not target any particular industry, it included all economic sectors. However, to limit public expenditures, because there were some major economic constraints, they introduced the rule of 100 jobs for every municipality of at least 500,000 residents. If you take Montreal, the number would apply to the city of Montreal. For example, in La Salle, it would be 60 jobs, and, in Saint-Léonard, it would probably be 80. But, to my mind, for the unemployed, this has always been a kind of discrimination.

The difference between the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve and myself-There have been a number of meetings on the subject and we even attended some of these together, and I said this before and I say it again today, if you want to get rid of discrimination, you get rid of it across the board. If 100 is discriminatory, then 20 is just as discriminatory as 100, because where do you draw the line, Madam Speaker?

An example: 74 per cent of small businesses in Canada employ fewer than five workers, and 97 per cent employ fewer than 50. Since three quarters of all small businesses in Canada employ fewer than five workers, we would correct only 25 per cent of the discriminatory practices in this sector. As I said before, when you get rid of discrimination, you get rid of it across the board. If a practice is discriminatory, you get rid of it altogether. That is why, since October 25, with the advent of the new Liberal government I have been working with the Department of Human Resources Development to deal with all aspects of this problem. It is a social problem.

When a 55-year old worker is laid off, either in a collective lay-off or individually, it is very difficult for him to get a job. This is a social problem that has been with us since the sixties. Twice attempts were made to deal with the problem through programs which, unfortunately, failed to deliver. I am working with the minister, with the human resources development committee to which the hon. member wants to refer this bill, and our

objective is to deal with this problem once and for all through the reform of our social programs. We have young people, older workers, women and the disabled who need our help.

As we approach the 21st century, we have an economy that has changed completely, and we must deal with this through social measures that go beyond the consideration that 100 jobs are affected in a company. It is a problem because we are talking about older workers. What difference does it make whether a person works in Saint-Léonard, Ville LaSalle, Chicoutimi or Laval? That should not be a problem. We have to deal with the social issues.

At the time, I asked the hon. member to join me, with his party colleagues, so that we could all work together. All parties are represented on the Committee on Human Resources Development. When the report is comes out this fall, they want to prepare a study that includes these programs. The minister is working on this with his department. We will then be in a position to respond.

Reducing the number from 100 to 20 does not get rid of the problem. There will still be discrimination, because 74 per cent of small businesses have fewer than five employees, and more and more small businesses are being set up. We cannot depend on big companies to create jobs. We saw what happened. Like me, the hon. member is from East Montreal, and we all know what happened to the big companies in Montreal during the recession. Only small businesses will be able to create real jobs. In fact, this government is committed to creating jobs by developing small businesses, so we cannot discriminate in this area. I would urge the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve to continue his efforts, as I continue mine, to help older workers.

We must find a system, a comprehensive solution so that everybody has a job, whether the company has ten, five, twenty or fifty employees; we all know that units are becoming increasingly smaller.

The member knows quite well that if this bill were to pass tomorrow morning, there would be just as many cases in the ridings as there are today, because the problem would still be the same. Even as members of Parliament we do not know what to say sometimes; we often see cases where they are close to the 100 threshold. I know of many instances where there are 80, even 95 employees affected in a plant which does not qualify. So if the limit is 20, what will we say when there are only 17 or 18? The discrimination will be exactly the same.

Madam Speaker, my colleague mentioned the Steinberg case. I am well aware of that case because I met the parties involved several times here in Ottawa and in my riding. I am still working on it and I hope to solve that Steinberg problem because it is a simple matter of interpretation. We could solve it even within the existing program. The problem is that a civil servant somewhere decided to consider different parts of the company as separate units. Steinberg was a single employer and we know it moved employees from one supermarket to another, in different municipalities. These people had to follow orders, go and work a week or a day in such or such a place. When Steinberg closed its doors they were in one store rather than another, and the choice had not been theirs.

I believe that together we could have that decision reviewed and we could bring justice to these employees. However, the general problem can only be solved with the Minister of Human Resources Development and the committees which work on the matter. As it is, we have to allow some time. Social programs are not going to be reformed every year. We are in a favourable period and we must act. I am glad we are doing this now, because I think the timing is right. We have to press on.

I urge the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve not to give up. His bill did not get unanimous consent and could not be referred to a committee, but it is a subject that we should come back to. There is a problem in our society which has to be solved, but solved for good. As I said earlier, you do not correct a discrimination by creating another one. That discrimination has to disappear completely if we want to leave some hope to our workers, even those less than 55. Should there be some lay-offs, they should expect some compensation, even if they are young. They should be able to access a system allowing them to continue paying their mortgage, the rent, their children's tuition. Today, that security does not exist.

I congratulate the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve and I urge him to continue his battle; he will always get my support on this. I am convinced that the reform of social programs will answer this bill.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Madam Speaker, excuse my inexperience, I am willing to learn. We presented a motion we hoped would be votable to defer a bill and I understand that the government is not going to accept it on the basis of specific criteria which it finds discriminatory. If we were to present our proposal and say that we are committed to remove any mention of eligibility according to a specific number, be it 20 or 100, can we ask the House to reconsider the motion and vote again on it, if the member for Saint-Léonard is willing to be consistent?

You do understand my point of order, Madam Speaker. The member told me that it was not admissible because it was discriminatory. I am willing to remove the element found discriminatory, and I ask the House to reconsider the motion.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

Is there unanimous consent to amend the motion?

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

Alfonso Gagliano Liberal Saint-Léonard, QC

Madam Speaker, the hon. member has introduced a bill. Over a month ago, he came to me and asked me to support this bill, but I told him that I could not back it in its present form. He had all the time he needed to make the necessary amendments. I think that in my speech, I was honest. I congratulated the member and encouraged him to keep at it. However, if he is only interested in politicking, then I am not biting.

I maintain that he had all the time in the world to come up with some amendments. I made it clear to him from the very beginning when he asked for my support that I could not give it to him. Now that we are debating this bill in the House and he is making his speech, he is coming back to this point. The best thing to do now is to have this debate and, if he wishes, he could introduce another bill at a later time or, as I suggested, raise the matter before the human resources committee. This would certainly help the cause of these older workers a great deal. However, if he is interested in politicking, then politicking he will get.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:30 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles Duceppe Bloc Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Madam Speaker, indeed we do not have any interest in politicking. If that had been the case, we would have referred to the question of social reform and mentioned the fact that some precedents do exist since the unemployment insurance formula was changed in Bill C-17 to reduce benefits. The unemployment insurance system was changed, even though social reform has not yet been finalized. Therefore, a precedent does exist.

However, in the measure-

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I am sorry, but I think the hon. member will agree with me that-

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:30 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles Duceppe Bloc Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to finish my point of order. To the extent that we are not interested in politicking, we have just heard the hon. member for Saint-Léonard say that one of the program's provisions was discriminatory. We are prepared to support his suggestion that the discriminatory provision be removed and that the whole matter be referred to committee. This being the case, we would support the hon. member for Saint-Léonard's proposal.

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:30 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Madam Speaker, on a point of order. Let there be no mistake. I will not tolerate, and I do not expect that you will either, being accused by the hon. member for Saint-Léonard of politicking. Let me tell you-and I would like to wrap up, if I may-that I have been involved in this issue since 1989. The riding I represent is fairly disadvantaged as compared to that of the hon. member for Saint-Léonard and I find his comment uncalled for.

The real question, the one workers will remember, is: Does this government want-

Department Of Labour ActPrivate Members' Business

2:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

Order! The hon. member for Saint-Léonard, on a point of order.