Debates of Nov. 21st, 1995

Regional Development

[Richard Bélisle, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for regional development in Quebec.

In his report tabled today in the House, the auditor general casts doubt on the ability of the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec to create sustainable jobs and revenues. In Quebec alone, since 1988 FORD-Q has spent $1.15 billion on businesses and organizations without first verifying their financial viability. Of 11 businesses examined, five had to close their doors before receiving the final government subsidy payment.

How does the minister explain that, in the midst of a public financial crisis, FORD-Q is incapable of awarding federal funding more judiciously? Why is it taking so long to put a stop to this endless wasting of taxpayers' money?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, just in the years the member mentioned-between 1988 and 1994-, the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec committed $1.1 billion. This commitment generated investments of $6.4 billion in over 4,000 projects in Quebec. This is job creation, and we are proud of it.

[Richard Bélisle, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the auditor general indicates that program overlap in regional development is a source of waste, as we all know, and that FORD-Q had no influence on the policies of other federal governments.

Will the minister finally understand that the federal government must get out of this area of jurisdiction and transfer the funds to the provinces, which are in a better position to act, in any case?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I think the report the hon. member is reading is different from the one I have.

First, I would point out to the member that most of the criticism of FORD-Q applies to the 1980s. Things have changed since then. That is, the programs of the 1980s cannot perhaps be adapted to the 1990s. This is why FORD-Q completely changed its programming in order to create an SMB access centre, which has led to hugely successful SMBs.

I would like to quote from the auditor general's report: "The development of the new programming framework is the result of strategic reflection. FORD-Q's approach is well structured. Roles and responsibilities were clearly defined, and appropriate mechanisms put in place to ensure activity co-ordination and follow up. Our examination revealed-this is the auditor general speaking-that the department had given reasonable consideration to information on past activities and on its internal and external environments".

The auditor general congratulated us, and I would like to congratulate the department officials here today.

Foreign Affairs

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, reliable sources confirm that foreign governments are very upset about our SIGNET program of communication between our embassies and Ottawa. SIGNET is leaking. SIGNET is leaking not only our information but the information of our allies.

What has the Minister of Foreign Affairs personally done to respond to the complaints of our allies to ensure that the secret information in SIGNET is kept secret?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday in the House, the government does not discuss security or intelligence matters.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that is the same answer I have been getting as I have tried to research this through various people. I have talked to the acting director of SIGNET and I have talked to security. It is our allies who are telling us to do something.

In opposition the government whined about patronage, whined about SIGNET costing too much, whined about the $100 million that was being spent. Now the government risks losing not only international trade, it also risks losing co-operation with our allies and losing our reputation. What is the minister going to do to change this?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I see that the hon. member has been reading some press articles which have motivated him to ask questions in the House.

I want to assure him that the system is fully operative. It is working to the satisfaction of the government and to the people who are using it.

Regional Development

[Gilbert Fillion, Bloc, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for FORD-Q. In the report he tabled today, the auditor general points at serious flaws in the management of federal regional development programs. He states, among other things, that since 1988, the federal government has

spent $4.5 billion for these programs without knowing if they have really helped create jobs and if they were properly spent.

Does the minister responsible recognize that it is inadmissible to spend $4.5 billion, $1.15 of them in Quebec, without any clear creation of jobs?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, as a mater of fact, quite a number of jobs have been created as a result of the Federal Office of Regional Development's activities. I can tell you that whenever I visit one of the 13 FORD-Q offices in Quebec, and meet business people, I meet individuals who have created jobs thanks to the federal office's activities.

Indeed, if there were problems with program evaluation, the department recognized them and this is the reason why we changed our programming and the way we operate. I do accept the member's congratulations on our new programming.

[Gilbert Fillion, Bloc, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, obviously, the minister of finance is skating around the issue, but the auditor general was very clear. Since the auditor general has pointed out that FORD-Q's methods for evaluating program spinoffs are flawed, does the minister intend to take corrective actions so that taxpayers may have a clear and correct idea of reality?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, we did that two years ago.

Agriculture

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

His minister of agriculture was to release the final report of the Canada-U.S. Commission on Grains two and a half months ago on September 11. The minister of agriculture is rivalling the Prime Minister and the Minister of Human Resources Development in the do nothing department.

My question stems from his promises to launch reforms to a number of key agriculture areas based on numerous reports and studies. Can the Prime Minister tell the House why he allows his agriculture minister to delay the Canada-U.S. joint commission report, even though the commissioners who have drafted the report have suggested the content is complete and is similar to material released in the interim preliminary report?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to take this question on behalf of my colleague, the minister of agriculture. Let me confess that I do not have the kind of knowledge this question requires to give a good answer. But I do know that the best minister of agriculture who lives and breathes on the North American continent today sits to my left in the House of Commons.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans knows no bounds in his attempt to become the replacement for our current Prime Minister.

One wonders if the minister's delay has more to do with the fact that the report will give legitimate fodder for those farmers calling for the reform of the Canadian Wheat Board. The minister indicated yesterday in the House on a plebiscite that "this plebiscite was not the be all and end all of wheat and barley marketing". It seems that the minister fears allowing producers the right to determine how they market wheat and barley.

Does the joint commission's report contain definitions and content that the minister is withholding from the public's view because it might influence the outcome of the Alberta plebiscite on wheat and barley marketing toward an outcome the minister does not particularly want?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, even a minister of fisheries knows you cannot put the cart before the horse. The reality is the plebiscite results will not be released until December 5. The member opposite would be the first one to stand and complain if the minister of agriculture came to conclusions in advance of knowing the plebiscite results and finishing the consultations.

Be patient and a very excellent minister will do a very excellent job as usual.

Diplomats

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Canadian diplomats are having the government pay for plane tickets that they do not use, and then getting refunds from the airline and pocketing the money. This practice is such that a diplomat posted to Australia with his family can derive benefits equivalent to one third of his annual pay by cashing in his plane tickets.

Given that his government is asking all Canadians to tighten their belts, how can the Minister of Foreign Affairs justify tolerating such an outrageous practice benefiting diplomats?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is not up to date. Had he attended the foreign affairs standing committee's meetings, his question would have already been answered, because this issue was raised and an answer provided in committee.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we have raised this question in this House before, but never got any real answers. That is why we are asking it again today.

Could the Minister of Foreign Affairs explain to Canadian taxpayers why he refuses to immediately put an end to this practice, which is unacceptable at a time when UI benefits are being cut back to replenish the state's coffers?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. member did not like the answer he was given. As a matter of fact, he has just confirmed having received an answer. He may not like it, but he must understand that arrangements between government employees and Treasury Board are made under the applicable collective agreements, which are honoured by the government.

Should we exceed our powers and not comply with the terms of these arrangements, the hon. member would be the first one to complain that we are not respecting collective agreements.

Science And Technology

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we were all very proud to see Canadian astronaut Chris Hadfield return safely to earth yesterday from a successful eight-day mission aboard the space shuttle Atlantis .

This government has made it clear that it is very important to establish spending priorities that meet the needs of Canadians. Would the Secretary of State for Science, Research and Development please tell this House what exactly are the benefits Canadians receive from space flights like the one Chris Hadfield returned from yesterday?

[Jon Gerrard, Liberal, Secretary of State (Science]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. It is true that sometimes when we are deep in snow on the ground in Canada it is nice to have the sort of inspiration and hope which is provided by Chris Hadfield up in space using Canadian technology including the space vision system to link in partnership in space two former cold war protagonists.

I should add as well that earlier this month we launched RADARSAT which is positioning Canadian entrepreneurs competitively in the global earth observation market with some very new technology. It provides some remarkable advantages as well in monitoring and being able to improve the quality of our global environment.

Employment

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister of public works.

The auditor general accuses the regional agencies of inflating the job creation numbers. Jobs are counted twice, part time jobs are considered full time jobs and jobs that no longer exist are counted as jobs. This is a serious indictment against this government whose jobs platform has been shredded to pieces by the auditor general's report.

Will the minister admit to Canadians that the government's job creation strategy through borrowed money, infrastructure programs and regional development agencies is a $10 billion failure?

[David Dingwall, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. It clearly indicates to the House the clash of ideologies between this party and that party. The ideology of that party as it relates to Atlantic Canada is one of "will the last one leaving please turn off the lights". It is migration out for the Reform Party when it relates to Atlantic Canada.

I welcome the auditor general's recommendations. We have moved on many of them and hope to live up to almost all of them in due course.

In the agency I represent two national reputable firms surveyed 1,150 of the various private sector companies that received financial assistance from ACOA. They told us that 96 per cent of the jobs the firms said they were going to create they did create.

The auditor general surveyed 51 companies and he found that some of the precision, if you will, of the reporting could be improved on, and we will do so.

He also said:

Our findings, while based on a significant portion of the reported jobs created, cannot be used in place of the survey as an estimate of the jobs created by the Agency's clients.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, let us take a look at some examples. While the government was downsizing the fish processing industry, it spent $2.2 million to upgrade a fish plant. This caused a neighbouring fish plant to close down. The 250 jobs that were created were stolen from the other fish plant. The second one closed down in 1994, yet somehow these 250 jobs that disappeared entirely showed up as job creation.

Will the minister tell us on what basis jobs stolen, jobs lost, jobs eliminated and money wasted will count as jobs created?