House of Commons Hansard #228 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was taxes.

Topics

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Is there unanimous consent?

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

So ordered.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

5:25 p.m.

Reform

Val Meredith Reform Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC

moved that Bill C-260, an act to amend the Criminal Code (replica firearms, theft, import or unlawful use of firearms) be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I have been involved with the gun control issue for almost three years, since the Reform Party asked me to chair a subcommittee on the issue in January 1992. Prior to that date I was blissfully unaware of the topic, since I was not personally affected by the legislation. Since then I have found it to be one subject that evokes a great deal of passion whenever it is debated. Much of the argument is dominated by those who take extreme positions on either side of the argument. That is probably why I was asked to chair the Reform Party subcommittee on the gun control issue.

I do not now own nor have I ever owned a firearm. I do not hunt, target shoot or collect guns, nor would I allow one in my house. However, having spent 15 years living in northern Alberta, I recognize that for many people, especially those living in rural Canada, a firearm is a necessary tool in their daily lives.

With this background I set out with four colleagues to examine the question of gun control. I reviewed the legislation that is in place now. I received a number of briefs from organizations like the Gun Control Coalition and the National Firearms Association and countless groups in between. I spoke to Canadians from coast to coast to coast, pro and con. I learned very quickly there is little common ground and I admit that it is likely impossible to come up with a gun control bill that would satisfy everyone. The solution became a little more basic: to address the problems caused by firearms in our society.

With very few exceptions, the central concern everyone has about firearms is their criminal use. People are concerned about the number of crimes that are committed with guns. They are frightened about the apparent increased willingness of criminals to use guns, and they are terrified to hear about random drive-by shootings like the one that killed Nicholas Battersby here in Ottawa last year.

In other words, people wanted the government to enact legislation that would deter criminals from using firearms. In response to those concerns we heard the justice minister making statements last year that he believed only police officers and soldiers should have guns. One can imagine how legitimate gun owners felt when they heard comments like this from the new justice minister.

It was apparent that alternative legislation needed to be drafted. I approached the police and crown counsel and asked them what legislation they needed to assist them in combating the illegal use of firearms. I listened to the current shortcomings of section 85 of the Criminal Code and heard how these weaknesses had led to charges under section 5 frequently plea bargained away. I felt that with improved legislation in section 85 we would be taking a giant step in deterring the criminal use of firearms. On June 15, 1994 I introduced Bill C-260. I want to remind the House that the government's Bill C-68 was introduced eight months later on February 14, 1995.

Bill C-260 addresses the weaknesses in section 85 and creates new offences for the theft and possession of stolen firearms, the illegal importation of firearms for criminal purposes and makes an individual who illegally sells a firearm that is subsequently used in criminal offence a party to that office.

Under Bill C-260 anyone convicted of using a firearm in the commission of a criminal offence would receive a minimum five-year sentence consecutive to any sentence for the crime itself. For a second offence the penalty would increase to a minimum 10-years consecutive.

These minimum sentences would be a real deterrent for any criminal who chose to use a firearm. Not too many criminals would be prepared to risk that additional five-year minimum sentence.

Similarly, the new subsections created by Bill C-260 would also have had a deterrent effect. Today a break and enter conviction usually nets an offender probation or at most, a sentence of up to six months. However, if during that break and enter the offender happens to steal a firearm, that criminal would suddenly be facing a minimum three-year prison sentence, an effective deterrent, as is the minimum three-year sentence for those illegally importing firearms for criminal purposes or illegal resale in Canada. The last subsection of the bill would make those individuals who provide the guns illegally to criminals responsible for their illegal acts. These individuals play an integral role in the commission of these crimes so they should be made a party to those crimes.

Another issue that the bill addresses is the inclusion of replicas in section 85. One reason that section 85 charges seldom succeed is the existence of replica firearms. Currently the crown must prove that the weapon used in the commission of an offence meets the legal definition of a firearm. This is only possible in those instance where the accused is immediately arrested with the firearm still in his or her possession or if a shot is actually fired during the commission of the crime. If neither of those things happens, the crown cannot prove it is a firearm and therefore, no conviction under section 85.

Bill C-260 just requires that the object used in the offence appears to be a firearm. The bank teller who has a firearm shoved in her face during a robbery is just as terrorized by a replica as she would be by a real firearm.

That is the bill, a bill that addresses the problem of the criminal use of firearms, a bill that could be called gun control and crime control. It is not what the government wanted. It wants to control the firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens so the government gave us Bill C-68.

Only about 20 per cent of Bill C-68 deals with the criminal use of firearms, although the other 80 per cent of the bill will likely make criminals out of a lot of otherwise law-abiding firearm users.

While the section of Bill C-68 that deals with increasing the penalties for the criminal use of firearms has been loudly touted by the government as a get tough policy, it will in reality become a paper tiger.

In British Columbia today the average sentence for a criminal convicted of using a firearm during the course of a robbery is five years. Bill C-68 introduces a minimum sentence of four years. How is this going to deter anyone?

In addition, Bill C-68 introduces a new section to deal with replica firearms. The only problem is that it is now up to the crown to prove that the object used in a crime was either a firearm or a replica. In most cases it will be able to prove neither so the legislation will be used as infrequently as it is today.

I have no difficulty in defending my Bill C-260 compared to the Liberal Bill C-68. I targeted the criminal who uses a firearm during the commission of an offence. The government targeted the legitimate gun owner. This is an example of the basic philosophical difference between Reformers and Liberals. We get tough on criminals. The government gets tough on ordinary Canadians.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

5:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I will take a moment to consult with the Table.

I wonder if I might ask for the assistance of my colleagues. In this debate the member would have been entitled to 20 minutes. I do not know if there was any indication given that she was splitting that time. Could she indicate to the Chair if she was?

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

5:35 p.m.

Reform

Val Meredith Reform Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I had not made any arrangements to split my time but several colleagues would like to speak on it in due course, given the rotation.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

5:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Under those circumstances I will follow the rotation.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

5:35 p.m.

Cape Breton—The Sydneys Nova Scotia

Liberal

Russell MacLellan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, on June 13, 1995 the House gave third reading to Bill C-68, an act respecting firearms and other weapons. Bill C-68 is comprehensive legislation concerning firearms which has been extensively researched and debated by members of the House and the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. It is now being studied by the Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs.

Bill C-260, which was presented by my colleague from British Columbia, who previously spoke, is a bill which I believe is basically similar to Bill C-68. Bill C-260 was introduced before the Minister of Justice introduced Bill C-68 and the hon. member might have introduced a different bill had the provisions of Bill C-68 been known to her at the time.

I want to examine the differences between the two bills. I would like to start with the issue of mandatory minimum sentences.

Section 85 of the Criminal Code now provides for a minimum term of one-year imprisonment for the use of a firearm in the commission of an indictable offence and three years for any subsequent offence, in addition to the sentence imposed for the underlying offence. The maximum is 14 years.

Concerns have been expressed with respect to the way section 85 has been operating because of the large number of charges which have resulted in acquittal or in the charges being withdrawn. Sometimes section 85 charges are withdrawn as a plea bargaining

mechanism. Bill C-68 will address the problems relating to section 85 of the Criminal Code.

Specifically, the bill states expressly under each of the 10 selected serious offences that the offender will be subject to a mandatory minimum sentence of four years imprisonment if the offender uses a firearm during the commission of the offence. The penalty for using a firearm is blended with the penalty for the 10 offences to which this applies. These offences are: causing death by criminal negligence, manslaughter, attempted murder, causing bodily harm with intent to wound, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, kidnapping, hostage taking, robbery, and extortion.

When in force Bill C-68 should eliminate the abuses tied to the existing application of section 85 of the Criminal Code, while Bill C-260 would not solve these problems.

I believe the intention of the hon. member is to get tougher on criminals who use firearms in the commission of an offence. In fact the minimum penalties found in her bill would treat offenders who use firearms to commit serious offences more leniently than Bill C-68. Her bill would simply subject all persons who commit offences with firearms, regardless of the severity of the crime, to a three-year minimum prison term, while Bill C-68 ensures that persons convicted of serious violent offences committed with a firearm receive, at a minimum, a four-year prison term.

Bill C-68 also addresses in a comprehensive and effective fashion the problem of replica and imitation firearms. Bill C-68 defines a replica as a device that is not in itself a firearm but is designed to resemble "precisely or with near precision a real firearm". In contrast a device such as a toy water gun that clearly does not resemble in the last detail a real firearm is not a replica but an imitation firearm. Because replicas are virtually indistinguishable from real firearms, their future sale, purchase and importation will be strictly controlled under Bill C-68 while imitation firearms, such as toy water guns and the like, will continue to sold in stores.

When it comes to a crime, the potential danger is very high, whether a real firearm, a replica or an imitation firearm is used. Bill C-68 will solve evidentiary problems which now exist because of the current section 85 in the Criminal Code. Section 85 encompasses only real firearms. Bill C-68 will include within section 85 presently in the Criminal Code real firearms, imitations and replicas.

Bill C-260, presented by the hon. member, would punish offences committed with replicas but not with imitation firearms. Moreover the bill would do nothing to control dissemination of replicas in Canadian society. In effect, Bill C-260 would only come into play after someone had been hurt or killed while Bill C-68 includes preventive action against violent crime by controlling the availability of replicas and imitations.

I would like to speak to the new offences that the hon. member proposes to add to the Criminal Code. The actions the hon. member seeks to criminalize are already included in Bill C-68 or in the current Criminal Code. For instance, clause 96 of Bill C-68 makes it an offence to possess a firearm or other weapon that the person knows was obtained through the commission of an offence.

As well, the Criminal Code currently contains an offence for theft and clauses 103 and 104 of Bill C-68 already include offences for illegal importation of firearms. These clauses also include illegal exportation of firearms and therefore are more comprehensive than the ones proposed by the hon. member.

Bill C-260 presented by the hon. member would increase the mandatory minimum sentence for these two offences from one year to three years' imprisonment. The House indicated it to be an appropriate punishment for various firearms offences in Bill C-68 that a one-year minimum sentence is stiff, demonstrating the potential lethal nature of firearms and the danger their illegal and unsafe possession pose to Canadian society. At the same time it is not so harsh as to encourage judges and juries to find ways around them where some sympathetic factual circumstances exist.

These minimum sentences are very important. We want to send a message about the illegal use of firearms.

Keeping people in prison is costly and raising minimum sentences from one to three years, as the hon. member suggests, would cost Canadian taxpayers an enormous amount of money. Moreover, where the facts warrant I am confident that judges and juries will impose harsher sentences. We have to have some faith in our judges and juries. There is a role for minimum sentences but basically the length of the sentences and the incarceration must rest with our courts.

The hon. member proposes to make a person who improperly sells a firearm liable for subsequent criminal actions committed by the purchaser of that firearm. In other words, a person who does not check for a firearms licence before selling the firearm would not only commit a serious office of illegal transfer but if the buyer commits a murder Bill C-260 would make the seller liable for the murder or murders as an accomplice, even though the seller knew nothing of the purchaser's murderous intentions. Such a result seems to me to be out of proportion with the seller's culpability.

Moreover, based on the jurisprudence of the Supreme Court, it would also be contrary to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms because criminal liability would not be imposed, not on the intentions of the accused to commit criminal acts and the

actual doing of these acts but also on the actions that the person did intend and did not foresee.

I cannot support that provision. There are severe penalties in Bill C-68 for illegal transfer. These penalties do not have the risk of contravening the charter of rights and freedoms.

I appreciate what the hon. member is proposing. A lot of what she is proposing is included in Bill C-68. The areas that are not I do not think add anything other than potential contraventions of the charter and completely reducing the authority of our courts in very important areas.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Reform

Grant Hill Reform Macleod, AB

Mr. Speaker, we just heard how Bill C-260 has been taken care of by government Bill C-68, a bill that I am not at all convinced has done much good for Canada.

The member for Surrey-White Rock-South Langley has produced a bill very specifically directed at the criminal misuse of firearm. This is where Canadians hope we will direct our efforts. Reformers want cost effective gun control directed at criminals that will be complied with by the Canadian population.

A couple of weeks ago I had an opportunity to be in Labrador and to exchange ideas with a number of individuals. Labrador is a spot where there are few people in a very large area, some 33,000 people. Virtually everyone in Labrador has a firearm, every home has a firearm. I was fascinated to listen to their responses to Bill C-68 and how they received it. They received it much like the people in my own home community, with some suspicion and some misgivings.

A fellow told me a story. Members of the RCMP used to do their policing in Labrador. The Newfoundland constabulary came in and replaced them. The new constables gave out tickets very regularly for putting a shotgun on one's shoulder and driving it out to the tundra on a snowmobile. They could not believe their ears. They wondered how else they were to get out to hunt the ptarmigan but with their shotguns over their shoulders and off they go on their snowmobiles. What did the constables think they would do? This was a normal reaction for people in Labrador. They resisted the constables. They said: "You cannot give us tickets for that. We will all be lawbreakers".

If somebody carried a shotgun over his shoulder down Bank Street he would be considered a criminal. It is inappropriate in this community. What I am getting at is that the individuals in Labrador have a very strong need for firearms. Giving them tickets and putting them under Bill C-68 for an activity that is normal for them is foolish. They reacted with surprise. They reacted with frustration. They reacted with resentment. They would not comply.

On Bill C-68 I had individual after individual tell me they would not comply. They would not register their firearms. They all agree with the portions of Bill C-68 directed toward criminal misuse. They virtually all disagree with that portion of the bill directed at gun registration.

How did they respond to Bill C-68? First, they said that their member would not listen. Second, they said that when they phoned his contact person he argued with them and did not listen. Third, they said that their member of Parliament voted against their wishes. They said they could bring him there for a forum with 33,000 Labrador residents who would tell him unanimously that they do not want this bill. This bill is not wanted in Labrador.

They started out puzzled. They then had disbelief that this could happen. Some government members listened to their constituents and were punished for following the wishes of their people. They asked me whether I thought what those members did was democratic and whether the punishment was undemocratic. Then they said that there was nothing they could do. One fellow said that my party was first off against gun registration. He asked if a member of my caucus was directed by his constituents to vote for it and what happened to him? He was given a hearty handshake for doing what he was elected to do, doing what he came to Ottawa to do, that is represent his constituents.

They were no longer puzzled with disbelief. There was a spark of hope, a spark of enthusiasm. They asked me what they could do, how to organize and how to approach Bill C-68 with a different group of individuals.

There was a very plain message there for the government. Canadians expect their representatives to listen to them and to follow their wishes, especially on a bill like Bill C-68 that was not discussed in the election campaign. There was no mandate for Bill C-68 during the election campaign. It would be entirely different if it was a big plank of the Liberal platform. It was not.

Whom can we listen to? We hear that the police support the bill. I want to tell a short story about a policeman. He started in police work some 25 years ago. He caught a guy with a gun in his trunk. He was pretty sure he had robbed a safe. He could not prove it, but the gun in his trunk gave him two years "in the clink", in his words. He is a pretty basic buy.

He had just retired as an RCMP officer. A couple of weeks before retiring he caught a bank robber. The guy shoved a 357 magnum in the mouth of the bank manager and locked him in the safe, scared him so bad that he quit his job. He was so frightened that he quit his job. He could not function as a bank manager any longer. He caught the bank robber. It was witnessed. There was no question. What did he get?

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Val Meredith Reform Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC

Six months.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Grant Hill Reform Macleod, AB

No, he got an eight-month suspended sentence.

Officers in Canada tell me that Bill C-68 will not work unless the public supports it. We need laws in Canada against criminal misuse that will be enforced by our police and enforced strongly. Bill C-68 fails.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to speak on the bill presented by the hon. member for Surrey-White Rock-South Langley. I hope all members of the House recognize the merits of the bill and support it.

As Reformers we believe public safety is the number one priority. Our goal is to prevent violent crime while not unduly restricting the activities of legitimate firearm owners. I firmly believe the existing controls on law-abiding, responsible firearm owners are more than enough and no further controls are necessary to ensure public safety. I reiterate that I do not think further controls are necessary for law-abiding gun owners.

The bill focuses on the criminals who use guns and replicas of guns during the commission of crimes, not on law-abiding gun owners. The hon. member is to be commended for presenting such a common sense bill which focuses on the root cause of crime, criminals. The justice minister should take note.

The bill, if passed, will send a clear message to criminals that the use of guns in the commission of crimes will not be tolerated. It increases the minimum penalty for a first offence from one to fourteen years, as it is now, to five to fourteen years and the sentence is to be served consecutive to the sentence for committing the crime. On the second offence the penalty increases from three to fourteen years to ten years to life.

It sets out a new offence for the theft of a firearm punishable by a penalty of three to fourteen years. It states that subsequent sentences are to be served consecutively. That is a key difference between this bill and Bill C-68 where there is no consecutive sentencing but rather concurrent sentencing. For that reason those sentences are not really what is indicated.

As well the bill provides for a new offence for unlawful importation of firearms for the purpose of selling or using them in the commission of an offence. The penalty is three to fourteen years. This common sense bill will help to prevent and deter crime.

Why am I so sure of what the bill will accomplish? As I said earlier, it focuses on the root cause of crime. How many times have we heard the Liberals talk about focusing on the root cause of crime? Usually the root cause of crime according to the Liberals is a whole series of things having to do with the background of the criminal. However the root cause of crime is one thing, the criminal, and the bill focuses on the criminal.

Once again I am reminded of Ted Byfield's editorial in the September 11 issue of the Alberta Report . In the editorial he refutes the notion that criminals are not responsible for their actions and that society is to blame. He cites the example of New York City and the dramatic decrease in crime experienced as a result of a police crackdown on petty crimes.

The police took the advice of two criminologists-it is very unusual to group criminologists together-who believed that cracking down on so-called petty crime would send a message on what behaviour would or would not be tolerated. The new chief of police in New York City focused on the root cause of crime, the criminal.

When the experiment worked-it worked extremely well-the old school criminologists were less than pleased because it meant that crime is somehow a voluntary action and therefore the criminal can control what he or she does, contrary to what the Liberals have been saying for some time in the House over the past 30 years. This completely blew their theory that a criminal is not responsible for their actions right out of the water.

I want to relate this bill back to Bill C-260. This bill focuses on what I also believe is the root cause of crime, criminals. This bill sends a clear message to criminals that the use of guns in the commission of a crime will not be tolerated.

Thinking about this common sense bill I am reminded of the other gun legislation debated in the House quite a lot over the past year. That legislation, Bill C-68, focused on guns and law-abiding citizens who use and own guns. The cornerstone of this legislation, the national gun registry, will not affect criminals.

I know of very few criminals who will register their guns. Instead of dealing directly with criminals, the justice minister's legislation ignores the criminals completely and concentrates on the law-abiding citizens.

Should not the purpose of legislation be to deter and prevent crime? If this is the case it will come as no surprise the Liberal gun control bill will not help to reduce or deter crime. The justice minister on several occasions has been asked to demonstrate to the House that the gun registry would actually reduce crime.

Despite repeated requests in the House during debate, during question period and by letters from groups in my constituency and in other constituencies across the country the response from the justice minister has been that the answer should be sufficiently obvious. This is his favourite phrase. It should be sufficiently obvious that a gun registry will help to reduce crime.

I wonder who it is sufficiently obvious to. Certainly not to the people who talk to me in my constituency and right across the country, most recently in Prince Edward Island. The people of

Prince Edward Island made it abundantly clear to me last weekend they do not see the connection between a gun registry and preventing crime as being sufficiently obvious.

I have an article from the Globe and Mail dated September 20 entitled ``Gun registration won't stem crime'':

A federal council on crime and safety supports universal gun registration but doubts it would do much to stamp out criminal activity. The national crime prevention council said that it backs the federal gun bill, including the plans to register all owners and their firearms.

The crime prevention council is a group of Liberal appointees. This is a quote from the submission from this Liberal group: "The system is, however, a costly and complicated proposal which may have a relatively limited impact on the prevention of criminal activity or victimization". This is from a submission by this Liberal commission-Liberal thinking at its best. I have heard an awful lot of that over the past few months in the House.

This clearly sums up the difference between the Reform Party and the Liberal Party and their special interest groups. Reform targets criminals who use guns; the Liberals make criminals out of law-abiding citizens. On the one hand the government has presented us with a bill that wants law-abiding gun owners to register their guns. These same law-abiding gun owners will face punishment if they do not register their guns, and many of them will not register their guns. No government can force people to obey a law they never wanted. Who asked for this law?

Bill C-260 is a common sense bill which focuses on criminals who use a gun in the commission of a crime. It sets out harsh penalties for the offences and thus sends the message that this type of behaviour will not be tolerated.

I am proud to support the bill, presented by the hon. member for Surrey-White Rock-South Langley. I thank her on behalf of Canadians across for the effort. I look forward to support from all parties.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, a few months back when I was in Kelowna one of the Liberal members and I debated Bill C-68 in front of a crowd of about 400. I felt sorry for her because there were no supporters at that gathering for Bill C-68.

Before the debate started they brought in an RCMP officer who went through section 85. The officer wanted all the people to know what was now in the law pertaining to guns. It took him over an hour to go through all the laws related to guns presently in the Criminal Code. I could not believe all of the things that apply not only to criminals but to law-abiding people. I commend my colleague from British Columbia for being able to find a flaw in there which really addresses what we need to address, the criminal. I applaud her for coming out with this bill long before we saw Bill C-68.

Her bill is pretty small but it has a lot of meat in it. She probably has an underpaid staff that did a little work and managed to come up with it. The enormous justice department managed to come out with about 190 pages. It called it Bill C-68, the answer to all our problems. It was accomplished by who knows how many highly paid senior bureaucrats, probably all with many degrees in law. They are brilliant people who suddenly out of the blue sky had all the answers to our problems regarding law and order. They would straighten it out.

When I remembered that presentation by the RCMP officer I found it unbelievable how many laws were already on the books. Really what makes it most unbelievable is to come out with a new bill of which 80 per cent applies to law-abiding people.

All this morning and yesterday we debated amendments we wanted to make to Bill C-45. We wanted to get restitution for victims. No, said the Liberals. That did not pass. We wanted to have a review of parole decisions which were not good. A mistake was made, the guy was paroled and he killed again. We think there should be a review. No, said the Liberals. They were little common sense things we wanted to do for the victims, for the innocent of the country.

Instead the Liberals came out with about 190 pages, 80 per cent of which attacked the innocent and the potential victims. Instead of addressing the criminal in all of those pages, with all the high paid lawyers working in the justice department, all of these geniuses, all of these champions of the people, they came out with that while my colleague and a couple of staff came out with something which absolutely makes sense and which I guarantee Canadians want. It attacks the criminal. I really applaud her.

My colleague says it is just duplicating what is there. This bill was presented eight months before Bill C-68 probably was even thought about. I take that back. It had to take those bureaucrats at least a year and a half to make that bill. After all, we have to keep them employed. That is part of job creation, to put a bunch of gobbledegook together and sell it to the public and then sit back and blow your horn that you have really done a great thing.

We are trying to address crime. We are trying to fight criminals. My colleague across the floor talked about how it costs so much money to keep these people in prison. It is such a burden and we cannot afford it. I did a little research from the solicitor general's department. In federal prisons about 65 per cent are violent criminals and 35 are not. In provincial prisons it is the reverse.

With my little back in the mountains brain I tried to calculate that and it sounds like it comes out about half and half. Fifty per cent are violent and 50 per cent are non-violent.

Then I remembered the years I worked voluntarily in prisons, counselling and trying to help young people particularly. A number of 18 and 19-year olds in there were not violent. I could not understand why they were sentenced to prison for as long as they were because they were not violent. There were better things we could have done with these young people. The amazing part about it was most of these young people were in jail because they had a drug problem. If they were not into drugs they would not have been in the problems they were.

What is our justice system doing? We are putting those kinds of people behind bars, we will rehabilitate them, fix them up. Guess what? As I visit every prison across the country I find out by talking to inmates and guards, as will anybody on that side of the House if they do the same, that it is 10 times easier to get drugs in a prison than it is on the streets of the communities.

We have a drug problem. We are putting them in a situation in which it is easier to get drugs than anywhere else. Then six or seven years later we will put them back on the streets. They have gone through X number of programs because they know how to jump the hoops, but we have not taken the drugs away because we cannot control it.

That is not the Liberal way. Let us not get tough on things like that. Let us come out with a big document that says: "You farmer, you duck hunter, you rabbit hole shooter, you gopher shooter, you are the guys we will have to take care of. You have to start registering these things. It is a problem".

The next day we hear the Ontario attorney general saying: "Good grief, the trucks are coming through. We are not stopping them. They are being driven by criminals". They do not even know what is in them. Probably guns.

Then we go out to another border and the boats are coming across with nobody to stop them. The standing orders are if the boat sets at this angle it has probably got booze. If it is at this angle it has probably got guns. If it is at this angle it has probably got drugs. They have no way of controlling it.

To produce Bill C-68, which will to do nothing about those kinds of problems, it will probably cost millions. Why not put those millions into border patrol and starting fight crime? That is what the member is wanting to do with her bill. Start fighting crime and quit being so picky over replicas. Walk down the street sometime and if somebody comes up behind you and you do not see them and they stick a pencil in your back and say: "Give me your wallet or I will shoot", I will guarantee you will go through a trauma. It might as well be a .38.

It is the actions they do, these kinds of people. It is those kinds of people we want. Let us get them into jail. Let us look for alternative programs for those who do not belong in there. Let us genuinely start helping those who are helpable and let us start putting those away who are violent and dangerous and keep them where they belong. It would probably save lots of money there as well.

Do not write any more documents. That is enough of that. All morning long the victims were denied help from the government. All afternoon on Bill C-45 victims were not even talked about by this government. Thirteen Reformers stood in the House and defended the rights of victims. Not one on that side stood and did the same. Instead they voted all those motions down.

I just bet they will vote this motion down. I will bet on it right now, because it just makes sense. It is what Canadians want. They do not use their heads. They listen to the little front row people. Their strings are pulled, the puppets jump up, and they support. That is what has to stop in this country. I am tired of it. Canadians are tired of it. Let us get to work. Let us start fighting crime and quit being so ridiculous.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Debate throughout this day and particularly the speech we just heard and the final remarks from the member for Wild Rose have been permeated with questioning the motives of other members of the House. I believe that is contrary to proper procedure in the House.

I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that you take that under consideration and report back to the House on whether or not members in fact should be encouraged to avoid questioning the motives of other members.

I have a side comment. The other side again made the same error, I believe, accusing me of having a guilty conscience. I go home and I sleep just fine at night, thank you very much.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I want to thank the hon. member for her intervention. I have been following the debate very attentively. My recollection also allows me to think back to a few months ago when a debate on the same issue raised some very strong views. I find the comments that were made today were a matter of debate and not a point of order.

There being no further members rising for debate and the motion not being designated as a votable item, the time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired and the order is dropped from the Order Paper pursuant to Standing Order 96.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, if you were to ask, I think the House would consent to calling it 6.30 p.m.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Is there unanimous consent to see the clock as being 6.30 p.m.?

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Criminal CodePrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

It being 6.30 p.m., this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24.

(The House adjourned at 6.18 p.m.)