Debates of April 16th, 1996

Somalia Inquiry

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, a few days ago I had the opportunity to be in Bosnia where our military is conducting, in a the most exemplary way, a security operation designed to help that country achieve a system of democracy and the protection of rights that we enjoy here in Canada.

One of those fundamental rights is the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, I totally deny the suggestion of the hon. member that all of a sudden we charge the ambassador to the UN with some kind of allegation until the commission of inquiry has had a chance to look into those areas. That is what the military is defending in Bosnia and we will defend it here.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are not talking about charges. We are talking about questions that were asked two years ago before the appointment of this ambassador.

This systematic denial of reality is really where the whole problem started. Not only must there be a full investigation into these charges, but until it is complete it will be impossible for us to maintain our position in the UN with this tainted ambassador at the helm.

Why will the minister not spare Canada more embarrassment from future revelations of the Somalia inquiry and immediately reassign Mr. Fowler to Ottawa until all of the allegations against him are cleared?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the only embarrassment this country is facing is the constant disregard for fundamental rights and liberties expressed daily by members of the Reform Party.

The Minister of National Defence has clearly pointed out that an inquiry was established to get at the truth of what happened in Somalia. The evidence has been presented. Mr. Fowler will appear under oath before the inquiry to give all the information he knows, as will others.

It seems to me that the hon. member is incapable of understanding the basic rights of decency and justice, that a person is not charged or tainted until they have had a chance to defend themselves.

Raw Milk Cheeses

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

With their draft regulation on banning raw milk cheese, federal officials are interfering against everybody's wishes and threatening the future of a flourishing industry.

How can the minister accept that an official can refuse to make available studies on raw milk that were carried out by the health department at public expense and thus belong to the public and not the public service?

[David Dingwall, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the official not making information available, I have instructed the deputy minister to make all information in the department, all of the scientific evidence, available. Of course there is information which cannot be released because of commercial confidentiality.

I want to share the words of my colleague in the province of Quebec, the minister responsible for agriculture and fisheries, who said that he believes it is essential to protect the health of consumers. Since there are some client sectors at risk, such as pregnant women, the committee he is going to strike in his province will have to make the necessary recommendations in order that the production, transformation and sale of milk products made from non-pasteurized milk will be monitored well. The Quebec health and social service ministry will sit on that committee. I welcome the support and the confidence of the minister in Quebec.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I invite you and the minister to come tomorrow to a raw milk cheese tasting right here in Parliament.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Does the minister not recognize that his department officials are threatening a growing industry which creates many jobs in Canada, mainly in Quebec?

[David Dingwall, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, I have two responses to the question.

The first response is that I would be delighted to join with my colleague in having a taste of good cheese from the province of Quebec.

The House should understand very clearly that on May 30, 1995 individuals under the national liaison group of milk products quality reviewed this particular issue and found no difficulties with the proposal that was being made. The officials who formed that group were from Ontario, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, the province of Quebec, and other representatives from the province of Quebec.

As of March 30 we have gazetted a regulation thereby giving everyone in Quebec and across the country the opportunity to make representations, to make sure that our regulation which may be out of date addresses the concerns of all Canadians and protects the health of all Canadians.

The hon. member does not have to believe me, she can believe the big cheese in the province of Quebec.

Justice

[Shaughnessy Cohen, Liberal, Windsor—St. Clair, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the parliamentary secretary to the solicitor general.

Canadians want the various levels of government to simplify, co-ordinate and avoid overlap. In Windsor and Essex county we see through our American neighbours what violent crime can do to a society.

Is the government taking any steps to clear up jurisdictional overlaps in the criminal justice system to make it more efficient and to ensure that nobody falls through the cracks?

[Nick Discepola, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, upon the initiative of the solicitor general's office as well as the office of the Minister of Justice, this Sunday and Monday a workshop was organized in Ottawa on the delivery of information on the justice system and the application of new technology. This workshop was attended by senior federal and provincial leaders. They are meeting in Ottawa to discuss the application of new technology which has been accepted by all jurisdictions as important to the delivery of the information system.

A concrete example of an initiative the solicitor general recently announced is the flagging of high risk offender systems. This is an initiative by the federal government as well as the provincial and territorial leaders. It is being administered through the police information office.

Somalia Inquiry

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, with the inadequate answers which we have received today on the Somalia inquiry the government has raised the bigger issue of ministerial accountability.

We have a serious dereliction of duty with respect to the Canadian Armed Forces in the case of the cover-up of the Somalia affair. Instead of the senior minister accepting responsibility for that dereliction of duty, he tries to pass it on either to an inquiry or to senior officials who then pass it on to the lower ranks.

Will the minister explain to the House exactly what his concept of ministerial responsibility is? Does he accept responsibility in the case of the Somalia cover-up?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, this is not a political science class at a Canadian university. If the hon. leader of the Reform Party does not know what ministerial responsibility is, he obviously does not know much about the Canadian parliamentary system and far be it for me to educate him.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in 1978 a Liberal Speaker of this House who is now an associate to the chief justice of the Federal Court of Appeal made a ruling on what ministerial responsibility is. I would like to read it to the minister: "It is the responsibility that when serious dereliction of duty by an official of a minister takes place, the minister is expected either to assume responsibility for that in the House or alternatively to advise the House of the appropriate disciplinary measures which have been taken".

Can the minister understand that? Does he assume responsibility for the Somalia cover-up, yes or no? If no, will he advise the House what disciplinary measures have been taken against those whom he does hold responsible?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, once a day the leader of the Reform Party has made accusations. He has not bothered to get the facts. He has drawn conclusions and he wants to mete out punishment.

We established an inquiry to look at this matter, to decide if there was wrongdoing. If wrongdoing is identified, the civilian or the military police authorities can take action and bring the discipline the hon. member wants.

I do not believe the hon. member after allegedly agreeing with the government that we did the right thing in establishing the inquiry really believes the inquiry can do its job. His very

questions show that he has no faith in the whole inquiry process and I think that is sad.

CANADA POST CORPORaTION

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Public Works.

This morning, we learned that some postmen from Longueuil photocopied envelopes sent to clients by private courier services and sent those names and addresses to Canada Post, so that it could approach those very same clients.

Does the minister think it is acceptable for Canada Post to resort to photocopying names and addresses in order to gain unfair advantage over the competition?

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I think this it totally unacceptable. I have contacted Mr. Clermont, the president and chief executive officer of the Canada Post Corporation. I have asked him to look into this situation right away, to see that such practices stop immediately and to undertake investigations throughout Canada to ensure that these tactics are not used elsewhere.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, can the minister assure the House that she will ask the president and chief executive officer of the Canada Post Corporation, her former colleague André Ouellet, not only to put a stop to this practice, but also to stop anything that can jeopardize the confidentiality of the mail?

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I have taken note of the hon. member's request. Of course, we take the services provided by Canada Post throughout Canada very seriously. I have communicated with the president, Mr. Clermont, to ensure that he will do everything possible to protect the confidentiality of all mail items in Canada.

Pensions

[Daphne Jennings, Reform, Mission—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Canada pension plan is going bankrupt quickly. This government has a decision to make. In the seniors benefit it has guaranteed seniors the right to "continue in their retirement secure the change will not affect them; that is guaranteed". However, the government's own ministers have warned that changes must be made: "You have got to take a look both at premiums and at benefits".

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. What is the government's position on protecting pensions to seniors?

[Barry Campbell, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite is confusing two principal components of the pension system in this country.

With respect to the Canada pension plan, as the member well knows, consultations are under way across Canada and she is welcome to participate if she has any creative suggestions on how to improve that system. With respect to the seniors benefit she spoke about, today's seniors are protected. The new seniors benefit will be of great advantage to seniors in the future. We are taking steps to ensure the sustainability of both aspects of seniors benefits, the seniors benefit and the pension plan in the long term.

[Daphne Jennings, Reform, Mission—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member appears to me to be waffling.

In essence we have been waiting now for almost three years for direction. Could he please be specific on just what is the government's position?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I first want to underscore the work that has been done by the member for Mission-Coquitlam in terms of her defence of seniors and her defence of grandparents, which is certainly very well known. It is unfortunate that her position is not reflected by that of her party.

She asked in her previous question about the status of the Canada pension plan. I can assure the hon. member that unlike the Reform Party which has a policy to abolish the Canada pension plan, it is the policy of the Liberal Government of Canada to protect the Canada pension plan for seniors and its viability in the long term.

Sports

[Murray Calder, Liberal, Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

As the minister knows, Toronto and Collingwood will jointly host the 1997 Special Olympics World Winter Games. The games will be the largest multisport event in the world that year involving 2,000 mentally challenged athletes from over 80 countries.

How does the government intend to show support for this important world sporting event?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member and several colleagues have been working very hard to make sure that the 1997 Special Olympics World Winter Games, which will be staged in Collingwood and Toronto, will not only be celebrated by 2,000 participants, 3,000 volunteers and people from some 80

countries, but that there will also be financial participation on behalf of the Government of Canada.

I can assure him that there will be specific financial participation. We have accepted his request that the funding from the federal government as suggested be $500,000.