Debates of Oct. 6th, 1997

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board

[The Deputy Speaker]

Whenever the member appears to get to the end of his questioning he lapses into the thing I tried to have him avoid. I know he will bear that in mind.

[Jean-Paul Marchand, Bloc, Québec East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I too was quite impressed by the remarks of the hon. member for Sherbrooke and leader of the Conservative Party, who said that, with the new pension plan, the level of taxation will rise by $11 billion over six years. It is strange to hear this expression of concern coming from the Conservatives. He spoke of the poor and the young and went so far as to suggest there is need to control and limit government spending.

Has he forgotten that, while the Conservatives were in office, Canada's public debt doubled from $250 billion to $500 billion? Does he not think that doubling the Canadian government's debt load and imposing a mismanaged GST on the Canadian economy, both actions having been taken by the Conservatives while in power, helped create many problems, including the pension problem? In other words, does he not think that increasing the Canadian government's debt load while they were in power added to the pension problem in Canada?

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that the member for Québec East is questioning my memory, because my memory of the period when the GST decision was taken is very clear, exceptionally so. If I am not mistaken, there was a minister at the cabinet table, his name will come to me—what was it? It began with a B—ah, yes, Bouchard, it was Bouchard.

One of the ministers at the cabinet table when the decision to introduce the GST was taken was the former leader and founder of his party, now Premier of Quebec. I assume the member for Québec East is not in disagreement with his leader. Surely not; that would be too glaring a contradiction.

Mr. Bouchard fought for these very policies, and finally won over his colleagues at the cabinet table.

Since the member for Québec East was wondering about my memory, I will go back over the whole story. What actually happened, objectively speaking, to the government in 1984? What was the situation awaiting us in 1984 when we came to power? We were looking at a situation where Canada's public debt, under the former Liberal government, had increased 1,000 percent. The member for Ottawa Centre likes to talk about 1993, but he forgets about the years before that. The public debt had increased by 1,000 percent under the former government. Annual spending was increasing by an average of 14 percent annually.

We brought that down to within 3 or 4 percent of the rate of economic growth. We managed to hold the line on spending and, in 1987, the former government managed to create a surplus in the government's operating budget. That is the real story behind all the rhetoric. Then we managed to lower the annual deficit from 8.4 or 8.6 percent of the GDP in 1984 to almost half of that. That is the real story.

For those who are interested, the real story is that all the measures to reduce spending put forward by the former government were shot down by the Liberals now in power. The Minister of Finance who took the Conservative government to task for its restrictive Bank of Canada policy is now piling on even more restrictions. It is these same people, including members of the Bloc Quebecois, who criticized the government's spending.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I find it quite incredible to be sitting here in the House listening to a member of the Conservative Party. In fact the leader of the Conservative Party sat here in government for over nine years. The Conservatives had a chance to fix the system. They knew full well then that it had serious problems. Now I hear this member putting on this caring, sharing concern for the Canadian public. This surprises me. They like to talk, talk, talk, but no action.

The member had a chance to create some action in the House. He had the opportunity to give up his gold plated pension, but did he do it? No. He can sit there and be eligible for over $4 million in pension and talk about the public who will have to try and live on between $8,000 and $9,000. I find this very, very intolerable. I cannot believe that he could stand up here and say this.

[An hon. member]

Say it again, $4.3 million.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

He will collect $4.3 million. Talk about a two tier system, this is a two tier system. This is a total rip-off of the Canadian public at its finest. And he can stand up here and say this.

I have absolutely no sympathy for the government. None. And I have no sympathy for the Conservatives either. There have only been two parties ever elected to this House in Canada and they are called Conservatives and Liberals. Back and forth we go. Every time there is a problem, it was the other government, “it was them who sat here before us who created it”.

Now we are at a point in time where the government has to jump up these premiums for the Canadian public on a system that should have been well financed and well-heeled forever. If this had been run under the public's eye, you people would have been serving time.

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, when you exaggerate to that point you certainly render yourself insignificant.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is the same—

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think that the member for Sherbrooke owes the member for Okanagan—Shuswap an apology. We do banter back and forth here but we try to stay for the most part away from personal comments that are meant to be slighted to the—

[The Deputy Speaker]

I do not think the hon. member is rising on a point of order. I think he is rising on a point of debate. He disagrees with what the member for Sherbrooke says but I do not think the hon. member for Sherbrooke, as he is alleging, has violated the rules of parliamentary debate.

The hon. member for Sherbrooke, a brief response.

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as I was saying to the member for Okanagan—Shuswap and now I will say it to the member from Prince George, when you exaggerate to that point you render yourself insignificant. That is certainly my advice.

I am surprised that the member from Okanagan or even Prince George would actually get up in the House of Commons and address this issue, especially after he and his leader said that they would not move to Stornoway, the residence of the Leader of the Official Opposition, that they would turn it into a bingo hall. These are the same people who said to Canadians that they were receiving letters from Canadians telling them to move the opposition into Stornoway. I can see it now. There is probably a riot in front of your office of people saying “please move them in”.

This is the same political party that had a hidden expense account for its leader and his family who went out and sermonized other Canadians. I can tell that some members of the Reform Party are embarrassed by this. You should be embarrassed because there is a word for this. It is called hypocrisy.

[Marlene Catterall, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this is my first opportunity to speak as the first member of Parliament for the new federal riding of Ottawa West—Nepean. I want to take this opportunity to thank my constituents for the trust they have placed in me to represent them in this Parliament into the next century and for generously sharing with me their ideas and opinions during the election campaign in June.

I also want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the hundreds of thousands of volunteers across this country who worked in this campaign, whether they made donations, knocked on doors, printed flyers or put up signs. These are the people who keep democracy strong in this country and who make it possible for people of limited means to seek office and to serve in Parliament. This is an extremely important part of having a Parliament that represents the people of this country.

Half of my constituents are new to me. They have been represented since 1988 by Beryl Gaffney as the member of Parliament for Nepean. They are accustomed to a member of Parliament who is accessible, responsive and deeply involved in her community. I shall do my best not to lower the standard of service to which Beryl accustomed them.

Beryl's legacy to Parliament is also important. It is a reminder to all of us that we are not here to serve ourselves but to serve the greater good of our country and of humanity. She especially reminded us that we are here to speak for those who most need the support of a caring, compassionate society, for children, for the poor and for those around the globe who are suffering the abuse of their human rights.

Canada's system of retirement income is one of the hallmarks of a country that represents the values Beryl Gaffney espoused, a country that cares for its citizens in need.

Fifty years ago this country had a serious problem of poverty among its elderly. Since then we have built retirement income, old age security, guaranteed income supplements, the CPP and public assistance to the tune of $14 billion a year to people's private retirement savings which has ensured each and every Canadian a retirement income which allows them to live at a modest level of dignity.

Although Canada's system is one of the best in the world, major demographic and economic shifts are threatening its long term sustainability. In particular the number of seniors will escalate dramatically when the baby boom generation starts to retire. The proportion of seniors in Canada will rise from 12 percent today to 16 percent by the year 2016, which is not as far away as it sounds, and to nearly 25 percent of the population by the year 2040.

This is important because at the same time there is a growing proportion of seniors in our population, there will be a shrinking proportion of working Canadians. As we all know, the CPP is essentially a pay as you go system where the contributions of today pay the pensions earned in the past.

Security in Canada's retirement income system has been a key priority for the government. The reforms the government is pursuing in part with the legislation on the Canada pension plan today will maintain the three pillar retirement system. The reforms will strengthen each pillar to ensure that all Canadians, including those who will not retire until several decades from now, will have an adequate, affordable pension which they will be able to count on when they reach retirement age.

I represent a large number of seniors. One of my priorities in the last Parliament was to make sure that the views of my constituents were well understood and well represented to the government on pension reform. Along with good health care, adequate income is essential to a decent quality of life in retirement.

The level of public interest in this was demonstrated admirably when over 200 people turned out to an all day forum which I held in 1995 to hear from constituents of all ages. Those individuals have continued to be involved. We have kept them informed with follow-up meetings and mailouts on how the reform of the public pension system is developing. Those individuals have shared their opinions with me. They have let me know their views on what the government is planning to do. In turn I have kept the ministers and the prime minister involved.

Let me tell the House some of the things I heard at the all day forum. They have not changed their minds. They are a very consistent bunch, the people of Ottawa West—Nepean. They wanted to ensure the security of their income. Participants in the workforce also wanted to ensure that they could count on the Canada pension plan being there for them and being affordable throughout their working lives. They wanted an assured benefit when they reach retirement age. Those who are already in retirement wanted to be assured that their benefits would not diminish.

Over all, participants of all ages supported a publicly funded, reliable, sustainable pension plan which is affordable and which protects against inflation. The participants insisted that a public pension system is instrumental in promoting fairness and alleviating poverty.

They also understood the significant demographic changes in Canadian society which are creating the need to ensure the sustainability of the Canada pension plan for the long term. They were also very concerned that those who are already in or near retirement not be affected because they had based their retirement planning on the expectation that the CPP would be there for them.

The government as a whole also consulted with Canadians across the country. In co-operation with the provinces, hearings were held in 18 different cities. Over 270 individuals and organizations made presentations. Thirty-three sessions were held. There were another 140 written submissions and over 6,000 telephone comments from Canadians as we looked at how we could maintain our public pension system and what was needed to achieve that goal.

The result of these consultations and subsequent federal-provincial discussions is the legislation that is before us today with respect to the Canada pension plan. I should point out that the agreement reached was endorsed by eight of the provinces, the territories and by the federal government. Clearly we have a strong national consensus to act in the interests of Canadians.

Basically what we have is a three part approach to restoring the financial sustainability of the CPP and ensuring its viability for future generations.

First by increasing contribution rates now, they will not have to rise to the much higher levels predicted for future generations. Second we will improve the rate of return on the CPP fund by investing it prudently in a diversified portfolio of securities. The investment is to be managed by a new independent board at arm's length from the government. Third we will match the growth in cost to the ability to pay by tightening up on the administration of benefits and changing the way some benefits are calculated.

A number of the principal features of the CPP remain unchanged. First, individuals currently receiving pension, disability, survivor or combined benefits under the CPP will see no change in their benefits. Furthermore, people over the age of 65 as of December 31, 1997 who chose to begin receiving CPP pension benefits after that date will not be affected by the changes either.

Second, all benefits, with the exception of the death benefit, remain fully indexed to inflation.

Third, the retirement age remains unchanged.

The 9.9 percent contribution rate now to be introduced over the next few years ensures that the CPP will remain affordable for Canadians into the future. Canadians will not have to face the 14.2 percent contribution rate projected in the 1995 actuarial report on the CPP. I know there are some who would like to pretend that does not need to be done, that we can just wait and leave it to another generation to worry about the pensions 15 and 20 years from now. We do not believe that is responsible.

This legislation also ensures the continuation of full indexation.

The cost of keeping the CPP sustainable will be shared more equitably under the legislation. It will be shared among those who will benefit both in the short term and in the long term. We will not be carrying on paying out pensions now and leaving it to a future generation of Canadians to worry about how they will pay for their pensions then.

The fact that we will be reviewing the CPP every three years ensures us that we will be well ahead of any changes and able to address any problems that are developing on a more timely basis.

I want to talk about other approaches to pensions we have heard about in the House.

Reform has told Canadians that they want to throw away the CPP and set up some super RRSP system. But what the Reform Party cannot tell us is how they will do it or at what price and what will be lost.

The CPP provides more than just retirement pensions. It provides disability benefits to contributors who are no longer able to work for example. The CPP has other benefits that RRSPs do not have. For example the time that parents spend out of the labour force to care for their children does not diminish their CPP pension, but it certainly does diminish their contributions to an RRSP.

Members of the Reform Party would like to see the government phase out the CPP. What they do not tell Canadians is that if we decided to shut down the CPP today, we would still have outstanding obligations to current pensioners and those who will be paying into the system for the next 30 to 60 years. The cost of paying CPP's outstanding obligations on a year to year basis would be close to 8 percent of contributory earnings for the next 10 years and then 6 percent to 7 percent for the following 30 years, on top of the cost of setting up their new RRSP.

I want to talk about the rhetoric that has been adopted by the Reform Party and the Progressive Conservative Party in the House, talking about CPP contributions as payroll taxes.

This country has been built on the philosophy of sharing of responsibilities for one another, where we contribute. The CPP was set up as a contributory plan. Today's paid workers contribute to the CPP to pay the pensions of those who have come before them and who have contributed to building their hospitals, their educational institutions and the quality of life we now have in this country. These are employer and employee contributions. I am quite happy to leave the payroll taxes to the neo-Cons on the opposite side of the House.

There is some unfinished business in the legislation before us. One of the proposals that was on the table in the latest round of negotiations was mandatory splitting of credits between spouses in CPP.

We believe and it is legally enshrined in law in this country that the family is an economic unit. Both partners in that economic unit deserve to share fairly in the money that is earned during the course of the marriage, whether one partner is working in the paid labour force or working for free at home, or both are working in the paid labour force.

One of the provisions our government put on the table and which was supported strongly by the Government of Manitoba was to enshrine mandatory splitting of CPP credits. Much to my regret, and I challenged one of the NDP members on this earlier this morning, the Government of Saskatchewan and the Government of B.C. chose not to endorse this. In fact the Government of Saskatchewan specifically allows a woman to sign away her rights to split her husband's CPP pension. I am pleased to know that the issue of sharing pension credits between two partners in a household will be on the agenda two years from now when the CPP is revisited.

When federal and provincial governments conducted their cross-country consultations on the future of the CPP, Canadians were unequivocal. They asked us to preserve the CPP. They asked us to strengthen its financing. They asked us to improve its investment practice. They asked us to moderate the growing costs of benefits. They asked us to to keep it fully indexed.

I want to assure my constituents and all Canadians that this is not simply a cost saving measure. Our purpose is to ensure that Canadians have what they have enjoyed for 30 years, a publicly funded pension plan that allows everyone earning income—

[The Speaker]

My colleague, you are in no way finished, you still have five minutes. It is almost 2.00 p.m. and if we could interrupt, you will have the floor when the debate continues.

Supreme Court Of Canada

[Claudette Bradshaw, Liberal, Moncton, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to express my support for the appointment of Michel Bastarache to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Mr. Bastarache was a respected lawyer and judge of the New Brunswick Court of Appeal when he was appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada.

I am confident Mr. Bastarache will carry out his duties as justice of the supreme court competently and efficiently. He is recognized for his knowledge and his fairness. In addition, his devotion to language and minority issues is highly regarded.

As an Acadian and a New Brunswicker, I am extremely proud of his accomplishments and am confident he will do excellent work as a justice of the Supreme Court of Canada.

I am hugely disappointed at the refusal by the members of the Bloc Quebecois to set aside their political goals and support a francophone from outside Quebec. After all, Mr. Bastarache is a francophone—

[The Speaker]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member. The hon. member for Saanich—Gulf Islands has the floor.

Canada Pension Plan

[Gary Lunn, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of the residents of Saanich—Gulf Islands.

This Liberal government plans on doubling Canada pension plan premiums. It is estimated that Canadians entering the workforce will receive only 57 cents for every dollar taken from them.

Consider Aaron Fyke, a 25 year old resident in my riding, who writes: “Please explain to me that I am not simply funding someone else's retirement at the expense of my own”. Seniors are asking me what became of the money that they contributed to the Canada pension plan.

This Liberal government is implementing the single largest tax grab in the history of Canada. The scam is irresponsible and unacceptable. People are fed up.

The truth of the matter is that this government refuses to accept that taxes kill jobs. Reform's retirement plan would guarantee that contributions are for pensions and, more important, Reform's plan would ensure considerably higher pensions for Canadians.

Teachers

[John Finlay, Liberal, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, UNESCO, designated October 5, 1997 as world teachers day, a day to honour the teaching profession.

Before entering this House in 1993 I spent my entire professional career in education. I began as a teacher and progressed through the ranks to become a vice-principal, principal and superintendent with the Oxford County Board of Education.

Throughout my career I had the pleasure of working with teachers who taught all grades from pre-kindergarten through grade 13. These teachers deserve our thanks not only on world teachers day but on every day of the year. Whether in the classrooms, coaching sports teams, supervising clubs or directing a school play, teachers play an integral role in the development of our children.

On behalf of all members, I applaud our teachers for the valuable work they do.

Member For Laval West

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on Thursday last, the Liberal member for Laval West took offence at the attitude of the Bloc Quebecois to the appointment of Liberal judge Michel Bastarache, saying that sovereignists, and I quote, “never hesitate to reward their separatist friends”.

The Liberal member would do well to look at her own situation. From 1993, the new member, who was the defeated Liberal candidate in Laval East, enjoyed the pleasures of Liberal cronyism until the elections of 1997.

In June 1995, she went to Haiti as an election observer at taxpayers' expense. In January 1996 she was appointed to the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development, again at taxpayers' expense. In June 1996, she was appointed commissioner of the Immigration and Refugee Board at an annual salary of $86,400.

Rather than feigning indignation, the member for Laval West should be blushing for having enjoyed the pleasures of cronyism.

Federation Of Canadian Municipalities

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Oak Ridges, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour and pleasure to inform you that the Federation of Canadian Municipalities has been selected from over 60 entries to receive the scroll of honour award from the United Nations Centre for Human Settlements, Habitat. This award was granted for mobilizing elected officials and staff from Canadian municipalities for the development of local communities and for providing support to sister municipalities in developing countries.

During the past ten years the FCM, in partnership with the Canadian International Development Agency, implemented international programs which have facilitated exchanges of municipal expertise between elected officials, staff and counsellors throughout the world from Canadian municipalities and their counterparts from Africa, Latin America, Asia and central Europe.

The presentation of the scroll of honour will be awarded in Bonn, Germany today and I am sure the House congratulates the Federation of Canadian Municipalities on achieving this outstanding award on behalf of Canadian municipal governments in this country.

Teachers

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise today to recognize world teachers day which was celebrated yesterday.

The United Nations Educational, Science and Cultural Organization, UNESCO, has designated October 5 as world teachers day to honour the teaching profession.

I think I speak for all of us here when I say that each of us has had at least one teacher, whether primary or at the secondary level, who made a lasting impression on us.

Many of us have teachers in our families and know first hand the commitment in time and energy they put into their jobs. Teaching is not a job that is left at school. For most teachers it reaches into their lives through after school activities, volunteering as sports coaches, band leaders, drama coaches and social group co-ordinators. All these things together are what provide the best educational and developmental opportunities for our children.

Let us give a hand for the teachers across Canada and around the world for the work they do.

The Family

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in view of national family week we recognize that nearly a million men came to the Washington, D.C. mall on Saturday to publicly state their promise to take greater responsibility toward their community, church, workplace and, most important, their family.

In what is described as the single largest religious gathering in American history, the promise keepers rally proves that the institution of the family is not a thing of the past but a stronghold for the future.

Even U.S. President Bill Clinton stated he cannot deny the sincerity of the men at the rally. Seeing the photo in Sunday's Ottawa Citizen should silence the critics who denounce the sincerity of the men, including many Canadians, who pledged to keep their families strong, healthy and together.

Last week one of this Parliament's greatest family advocates resigned her seat in an effort to keep her family strong. The sincerity of Sharon Hayes equalled that of the men who marched on the steps of the U.S. Capitol. Above all, family matters.

Communities

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Kent—Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the United Nations has designated today as world habitat day, a day to reflect on our communities, their importance in our lives. This year's theme is future cities, a theme that offers an opportunity for people living in communities everywhere to consider the current state of their city and to explore how existing problems can be overcome and their communities made more equitable, just and sustainable.

The conditions under which people live determine, to a large extent, their health, productivity and sense of well-being. Canadians are fortunate to live in the best country in the world and are among the best housed people. That state is largely due to the collaborative efforts of organizations such as Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and its various partners.

Working in close collaboration with industry and a host of government and non-governmental organizations, as well as community and self-help groups, CMHC strives to encourage the—

Quebec Economy

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the time has finally come to reply to the federalist demagogues who keep telling anyone who will listen that the political climate in Quebec has investors fleeing. It is just not true.

There are no less than 1,500 subsidiaries of foreign multinational companies in Quebec. For 1996 alone, approximately 100 new investment projects, totalling over $2.3 billion, were announced.

I could read you dozens of statements made by foreign investors who say they are not worried about the political climate in Quebec. Here is what one of many investors, namely the president of Intrawest, said “I am not concerned at all by the political climate as I announce $500 million in investments at Mont Tremblant”.

Quebec is attractive to foreign investors, and there is nothing the federalists can do about it.

World Teachers Day

[Yvon Charbonneau, Liberal, Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC]

Madam Speaker, as we celebrate World Teachers Day, I would like to pay tribute to my fellow teachers who have dedicated their lives to educating our children.

A recent study by the International Bureau of Education confirmed that the quality of life and social status of 50 million teachers across the world had dropped drastically.

According to UNESCO, the teaching profession is the largest in the world. In Canada there are more than 400,000 teachers.

I would like to recognize in particular the work of the Canadian Teachers' Federation, represented in our gallery by its president, Jan Eastman, its secretary general, Mr. Schryburt, and his deputy, Mr. Weiner.

I would also like to salute the French speaking teachers of Quebec, who belong for the most part to the Centrale de l'enseignement du Québec, represented by Joanne Fortier and Carl Charbonneau, and the Fédération nationale des enseignants et enseignantes du Québec, formerly presided over by my neighbour on Montreal Island and current member for Mercier.