Debates of Oct. 7th, 1997

Canadian Wheat Board Act

[Stéphan Tremblay, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Certainly, Mr. Speaker. I am getting there. But the folks in our ridings deserve a nod.

I am very proud of my riding—

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Richelieu, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I am very surprised to hear you call a member to order by censoring his arguments. On every occasion that we have risen in this House, we have made the connection between the bill now before us and certain objectives that our party has. I am very surprised to hear the young member interrupted and told that he must say this or that, when the other parties are not treated this way.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

With respect, hon. member, the Chair does not consider that to be a point of order.

[Stéphan Tremblay, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think that it is sort of a tradition for one's maiden speech to concentrate a bit more on local affairs. That was the reason I thought it important to mention a few facts. But, as you wish, I will move right along. I had some nice things to say, but out of respect for the Chair, and for this democratic institution, the Parliament of Canada, I will move on to my comments on Bill C-4. I do so with respect, because I hold this institution in respect. In Quebec, we have respect for democracy. I did want to mention the third referendum, which is not far off. I hope that this institution will respect Quebeckers' upcoming decision.

Finally, in connection with Bill C-4, I wanted to mention an agricultural initiative in my riding, the Coopérative Grains D'OR. The co-operative's 225 shareholders have set up a grain centre, which means they can process and package their own crops. I am telling you this because it brings me to today's debate on the bill to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act.

So, as I said earlier, the Bloc Quebecois is not opposed to the bill. It is a worthwhile piece of legislation which will ensure greater representation for western producers, and we are pleased to see a measure which will benefit other Canadian provinces. We are not here to undermine what is being done elsewhere, quite the contrary, but we are aware that, while the bill affects Quebec to some extent, it does so in an indirect way.

This measure is a carbon copy of Bill C-72, which was introduced during the last session of the 35th Parliament. Fear not: it is not out of generosity that the Liberal government came up with this legislation but, rather, because of pressure exerted by western producers, who have been demanding that changes be made to the methods used by the Canadian Wheat Board. In recent years, many transborder farmers from western Canada have illegally exported wheat to the United States. This undoubtedly explains, to some extent, the government's initiative.

The changes to be made to the Canadian Wheat Board through this bill take into account, among other things, the restructuring of this body, thanks, in part, to the partial replacement of Liberal patronage, as outlined in clause 3. I say “partial replacement of Liberal patronage” because this government will still appoint five directors out of the 15 mentioned in the bill.

However, the reason we are supporting this bill is that a majority of directors, 10 of them, will be elected by the farmers who use the CWB's services. This is a positive change, in light of the current situation.

It should be noted that the Bloc Quebecois played a major role in the makeup of the board. Indeed, without the efforts made and the pressure exerted by the hon. member for Frontenac—Mégantic, the Liberals would surely have reduced the number of producers' representatives.

As regards the activities involved, Bill C-4 provides greater flexibility in purchasing grain and paying farmers, the whole process being covered in part by a reserve fund set up by the CWB.

As our agriculture and agri-food critic said earlier, the Bloc Quebecois supports this government measure. Unlike those who accuse us of navel gazing and despite the fact that this subject might appear to be of no interest to us because of the difference in our farming sectors, we are interested in the measures proposed in the bill, which is if considerable significance for Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and various parts of British Columbia. Western grain farmers are entitled to have their say, and we will try to add our support in this matter.

Still on the subject of the social restructuring in this bill, I would point out certain facts that will shed a little light on what appears to be a government sacrifice, but which in fact a sham. I say sham because the government will retain fairly significant control over the Canadian Wheat Board.

In short, for these reasons, the Bloc Quebecois will support the bill's being sent to committee, and we do not intend to make things difficult for the government.

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to clarify a couple of points that have been made on Bill C-4.

When we hear about the undemocratic process that has been suggested with regard to the wheat board, there is no question that we need to have a balance between those who are responsible for the expertise in that legislation and those who really represent the sale by the farmers.

This bill does put forward a very good balance. We do have people who were appointed as the CEO of that corporation. We are looking at an extremely large corporation. People looking after that corporation certainly have a responsibility to have the expertise to be brought forward to make certain that those issues are understood and understood well.

We certainly need a larger portion of elected people who are going to represent those they are selling the grain for. Quite clearly there is not a scenario where one can be done without the other. The expertise of both is required: those who know the value of the grain, sell the value of the grain, work with people abroad, work with all the intricacies of transportation and everything the board is responsible for; and those who represent the primary producers.

In this bill we have set forward a balance yet we have put the primary producer first without question having 10 people elected from areas across this country.

When one talks about the responsibility of that board, the Ontario Wheat Board which is a very heavy producer of wheat as well is under the Canadian Wheat Board. Ontario certainly has a very strong vested interest in how the Canadian Wheat Board operates.

There is not one Reform member who represents Ontario nor do they understand. I spent a long time in the last Parliament trying to explain to several Reform members what that condition was with the Ontario Wheat Board and our sales.

Certainly they have to understand that my riding is a major producer of wheat, there is no question about that. We produce it in Ontario yet we need to have permission from the Canadian Wheat Board to sell our grain abroad. We need to have permission from the Canadian Wheat Board to transport it from province to province. Therefore there are many implications of that wheat board that have a great effect on other regions of Canada. It is not just a western grain issue, ladies and gentlemen. That is not the case.

I also believe that when we look at this bill we have done extreme consultation across the west. There is no question that this has been a process where hearings were held by a committee that went across the west. It looked at the results of those hearings and certainly moved that issue forward.

I think the minister at the time and the minister who remains today tried to take into account every aspect of the operation of that board before he made any recommendations. He very cautiously went about the recommendations and changes that were brought about.

I have no question that the department has spent years looking at the issues and bringing forth a compromised position that actually is fair for everyone. What we are hearing here is a very one sided viewpoint, a one sided presentation.

As my colleague before me pointed out, it is very clear when they talk about not having protection for the farmers who are sitting on the board from legal suits that may come about. What an unfair position it is to ask people who are elected and sit on a major board that deals with all Canadian wheat in areas of other countries, with all the questions and problems that come about and they are saying, “Look, sit there. We will pay you a small amount but if you are sued for millions of dollars, do not expect any support”.

What a shame that is because every other corporation in this country provides those protections for people sitting on their boards. All members in this House when they stand and speak are afforded that protection in this House. The House of Commons covers their costs if they have legal problems with regard to whatever happens in the House. They cannot be sued for statements they make in the House. However at the same time, they are saying that the board of directors for the Canadian Wheat Board cannot be provided that kind of protection.

I suggest there are many arguments being put forth here which are very one sided. That is very unfortunate from my viewpoint because I believe those ladies and gentlemen who dedicate themselves to work on the wheat board, those ladies and gentlemen who shall run for the new wheat board, will do a great service for the farmers in western Canada and for all the farmers in Canada. There is no question that we should give them all of the afforded protection we can give them so that they will provide that service well.

[Roy H. Bailey, Reform, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise for the first time in this House. I want to say that no bill will ever come before the House this session which is closer to my constituents than this bill.

I come from the Souris—Moose Mountain constituency where the farmers in 1960 wanted options. They were not satisfied with the marketing of grain. Although they were subjected to all kinds of opposition, phoney road bans, phoney literature being spread about it, the farmers said they want an option. They dug down deep into their pockets and built the Weyburn inland terminal. Today the city of Weyburn has the largest grain handling facility of any inland place in Canada because the farmers exercise an option.

Members opposite do not seem to realize that is what Reform is talking about. We are talking about an option.

If the wheat board does not look clearly into what our young farmers are saying, and I know this is true in Souris—Moose Mountain, if they are not given an option, then the wheat board, in its original purpose, the reason for which it was designed, will self-destruct. That self-destruction will not take too many years.

There is one thing of which members opposite ought to be cognizant. They brag about the 37% vote they got. The only difference between a third and a half is a sixth. That fraction is growing smaller and smaller all the time because of the bills they are putting before the House such as the bill which revises the wheat board.

They talk about democracy, with 10 of its members being voted in and 5 being elected. They say it is a Canadian bill. Is the creation of the Ontario Wheat Board not a Canadian bill? All of its members are elected. What is wrong with electing all of the members to this board?

As long as there is not accountability and open books, as long as there is not accountability in the way their statements are audited and produced, then that area of suspicion grows with every crop that comes off every farm. It is growing and government members had better understand why it is growing.

I alluded to the farmers in my constituency who have and will continue to put their money into their own grain handling facilities. If those farmers are given the option tomorrow, we will find out which option they will take. They will take the same option which they did in building their facilities. They will take that option. There is no doubt about it.

The member talked about getting permission from the Ontario Wheat Board to deliver grain across the border. Why is it that the people in the west cannot get permission to deliver their grain to the area of their choice? It is allowed in Ontario, but it cannot happen in western Canada. Government members will have to answer those questions.

The electorate of western Canada did answer. The greatest wheat growing province in Canada said “no way, we are going to elect eight Reformers all from the rural area”. There is the answer.

Those members say this is an Ottawa made bill for the bureaucracy that basically is in Ottawa, and therefore the bill is going to stay here. They know very well with the government members, five of them being appointed, all they have to do is take three members away from the 10 and they have the majority.

Democracy goes right out the window. All of those three members elected have to do is side with the government and the five who are appointed and the wishes of the farmers are gone.

Members know that and that is exactly why they did not have a totally elected board. That is exactly the reason. They are not fooling the farmers of western Canada. They are not being fooled one little bit.

If the farmers right now who are in dire straits, and there are a lot of them with the price of wheat, are given the opportunity, if they are listened to, they would say “Please, in our democratic society of Canada give us the choice. Don't legislate to us. We grow it, we store it but we don't own it. We don't sell it. We can't understand the operation because our selling agency is not even responsible to us”.

This is why, in my constituency, more and more agents every year are going out of wheat. Do members know why they are going out of wheat and barley production and the acreage is going down? Because they do not have a choice.

When they can get mustard, canola and soya, all of these commodities, that is where they are going. They contract it in the spring. They know what they are going to get and they got a choice. They have a choice with whom they even contract it to.

That is all we are asking, but those members want to keep this thing a dictatorial body governed not at arms' length from the government. The government is right in there and that is where the mistrust comes.

I know I can go to the people of my constituency, even those who support the wheat board, even those who openly say they want more control. They have said no, they are not going to get it with this mix-match. “We will give them 10 elected boys but we'll control them”.

They still see the board controlled by the government. That is exactly what the farmers do not want and that is not what the farmers on their survey of western Canada said.

I hope this bill gets a good airing in this House. I hope committee goes through it in detail because the major producers of western Canada deserve more of an option than what they have been given under this bill, for this is a billion dollar industry.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if two or three years from now whether anyone will remember this speech, but I will give it anyway.

Government is destroying the wheat board. I want to make that clear at the beginning. I am going to be asking a series of questions to point out how it is doing that. I have heard the Liberals across the way talking about the fact that we do not have any representatives in Ontario.

I do not see the relevance of that point to what we are discussing today. The Canadian Wheat Board affects primarily the people in the prairie provinces. If the hon. minister in charge of the wheat board had to face farmers in an election today, he would not get elected.

He got elected because he is in primarily an urban constituency. There are very few farmers who support him on this issue. I think that is something that should be clear to the members opposite.

I appeal to those people watching and listening to this debate today, I appeal to our city cousins, to listen to the dilemma farmers are in because they have no control over the minister of the Canadian Wheat Board.

The government is talking about democracy. Every farmer knows that the question which was asked on the plebiscite on barley marketing was not the key question. It was an all or nothing question.

The government decided that there was either a monopoly or there was no wheat board. That is not what the farmers in my area are telling me. If members want to talk about democracy, they should come to my riding and design the questions. I have already done that and over 80% of the farmers want changes to the wheat board, which the minister is not making. That is democracy and it is not happening in the House today. Over 50% of the farmers want some choice. They were not given that option.

I live in an area that is very strongly supportive of the wheat board.

Unfortunately I will not have time to get through the nine very important questions that I think need to be addressed. I will have to somehow communicate that to the members opposite in another way because those are key questions.

We have had very little light shed on this debate today. There has been a lot of heat and it has generated a lot of friction between farmers in Saskatchewan. Unless these questions are addressed and light is shed on this, we are spinning our wheels and not doing what is in the best interests of farmers.

When I surveyed the farmers in my area, I had no vested interest in one side of the question or the other. I wanted to know what farmers really thought. I think that is what the government should be doing. It should be going to farmers and asking what they really want. The government put in place a marketing panel and when it brought in its report, the government cherry picked.

I listened to somebody this morning reporting about the transportation issue and how all of the key stakeholders in it got together and reached an agreement and the government simply cherry picked on the results of that. That is what it has done with the western marketing panel. We have this problem over and over.

Another time I will go through my nine questions because I feel they are essential in shedding light on this issue.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings at this time and put forthwith the question on the motion now before the House.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. If I were to get the unanimous consent of the House I could go through these nine points because they are essential.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Does the member have the unanimous consent of the House?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

There is not unanimous consent.

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The vote stands deferred until the end of Government Orders tomorrow.

The House resumed from October 6 consideration of the motion that Bill C-2, an act to establish the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board and to amend the Canada Pension Plan and the Old Age Security Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee; and of the amendment.

Canada Pension Plan Investment Board Act

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, last night, as you are well aware, I had started into the debate on the CPP legislation, Bill C-2. I wish to give a quick review of the points I made last night before I continue.

The CPP legislation was designed some 30 years ago. There is no question that in that design of CPP legislation there needed to be—