House of Commons Hansard #147 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was report.

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Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:50 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The difficulty the Chair has is that in fact I do not recall hearing the hon. member for St. Albert when he began his intervention say that he was splitting his time. I heard an hon. member say he did not hear him either. Can we have a small moment of reflection?

It has been pointed out that the hon. member for St. Albert indicated at the end of his remarks that he was splitting his time with the hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands. Under those

circumstances I hope colleagues will agree that the hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands can now speak. The hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands can now speak.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Lethbridge Alberta

Reform

Ray Speaker ReformLethbridge

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I would like to move:

That the member for Calgary Centre be now heard.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It is one of those afternoons. Members on all sides of the House will appreciate that the peculiar requirements for making a motion on a point of order, as the Chair sees it, were met. The hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands had not said a word of his speech.

Accordingly, the Chair has no choice, as I see it, but to accept that the hon. member for Lethbridge has moved that the hon. member for Calgary Centre be now heard. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt this motion?

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it, barely. On the basis that the yeas have it, I would declare that the motion is carried.

(Motion agreed to.)

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think you will find, on my point of order, that we had more than five members rising. We want a standing vote.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Wonderful Wednesdays. The member for Calgary Centre was recognized on debate. The hon. member for Calgary Centre has the floor.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:55 p.m.

Reform

John Williams Reform St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Perhaps the Chair can give us some clarification. There were two members standing. The member for Lethbridge stood up and asked on a point of order for the House to recognize a certain member.

The Chair realized that it had no choice but to seek the opinion of the House, which you did. When the yeas and nays were called, I believe more than five members stood up seeking a vote. Perhaps you can enlighten us why the bells have not been rung, and why the member which the member for Lethbridge wanted to hear has not been heard.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I basically agree with the way the member has stated it, except that when the vote was called for the yeas won it. Therefore, in my view, the motion had passed and accordingly the House is acceding to the motion which is to give the hon. member for Calgary Centre the floor on debate.

The hon. member for Calgary Centre has the floor.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

Some hon. members

We need a ruling.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member has made his point. I obviously have not answered it to his satisfaction.

The hon. member for Calgary Centre has the floor on debate.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, this concurrence motion on the third report of the public accounts committee deals with a very important issue. The issue is the fact that tax havens are a big concern to the government. I got that straight from the mouth of the Minister of National Revenue. I know she is concerned about this, as we should all be. It is a very important issue.

Apparently the government feels that it has closed this loophole, that the matter has been handled very fairly, and that in no way, shape or form will rich people be able to transfer assets within trusts, or assets outside trusts, outside the country without paying a fair percentage of taxes that one would consider to be right and fair.

My big concern is with the way the matter was handled. Right from the start the government was upset with the auditor general, our watchdog on government. Lord knows we need a watchdog on government. When we have cabinet ministers loose with a bunch of money, billions of dollars without having someone audit them, we can imagine what they could potentially do with it.

It should be the same as what we do with private citizens and corporations. We audit large corporations and small corporations. We audit individual taxpayers to ensure, as the Minister of Natural Resources likes to say, that we have integrity in our tax system and the volunteer system continues forward.

I do not think the government was very smart in attacking the auditor general. After all, there was confusion with respect to this family trust. It was a very wealthy trust. If the government is worried that they have done something wrong then it should have complained. If it was not worried it should not have complained. It looked bad for the government.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

Reform

Art Hanger Reform Calgary Northeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. I would like a recorded vote on the motion put to the House by the member for St. Alberta. The House does not know who said yea or nay. It is my right to be able to ask for a recorded vote.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The Chair has already ruled on that matter. It may have been an erroneous ruling but the Chair has

ruled on it and we have moved on to the matter of the hon. member's intervention which he is in the process of making.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would be so kind as to let me know when I have one minute left in my speech. With all these interruptions I am losing track of the points I want to make, and I want to make sure I finish with a bang.

I am concerned about this third report. After the government finally accepted the auditor general's criticism, looked into the matter and had the Standing Committee on Finance and the Standing Committee on Public Accounts review it, it became clear that something had to be done and the government acted.

Personally I feel the government has gone too far. It put in some strict rules that ultimately led to something everyone will see on their income tax form this year. They will see a foreign asset declaration section. Never in the history of the country has an income tax form been used to find out where everybody's assets are offshore. Because of this overreaction the government has put it in the income tax forms. It was done prematurely, with arrogance and with anticipation that the bill would pass and it has not passed. It is not even law.

Now we have confusion across this land. This will simply ensure the Canadian taxpayer will become more frustrated and angrier than ever with our taxation policies. Instead of simplifying our tax policies the government continues to complicate them in such a way that I think more money will go into the underground economy and more money will go offshore because of high levels of taxation.

More people will start investing in tax free jurisdictions through tax exempt companies. They will put their after tax dollars into those tax exempt companies. There are people from tax haven countries who tour across the country and advise people on how to do it. It is legal. Because of our high levels of taxation that is what will happen.

They set up a lot of people, a lot of Canadian companies. Large corporations have set up their head offices offshore so they will not have to report their income to the Canadian government. If Canadians are able to make investments in tax exempt companies legally with after tax dollars as the money grows and accumulates in whatever it has been invested in offshore; if they do not take a dividend; and if they do not take a salary, they can still live in Canada and enjoy our wonderful health care and education systems, which are shrinking thanks to the Liberal government.

Then what happens? The offshore money grows tax free. They can reinvest the offshore money tax free. Does that not sound like a good idea? More Canadians will look at that. They will find that it appeals to them, that they like it, that they enjoy it. They will do it. That is where they will invest their money. That is what will happen.

Fewer and fewer Canadians every day have disposable income, including the Liberal Party whip who I know has some problems meeting his financial obligations in his household these days because he is taking home today much less money. I am making the same salary except for the whip money. He is taking home $3,000 less today than he was four years ago thanks to his own government. I hope he finds he can make ends meet with $3,000 less. In his tax bracket that is what the government and the finance minister have cost him.

Why are Canadians investing offshore? I made a list of why I think more people will invest less in companies in Canada and will go elsewhere because of the growing global economy. Here is what most Canadians feel about our country's taxation system. The current system is not fair. People perceive it to favour the rich and politicians at the expense of hard working taxpayers.

People question the value for money they are getting from politicians who do not know how to invest their money and do not have the business acumen to invest in businesses. Why are government officials investing in businesses and competing with the private sector? We could look at the bungling of the Pearson airport and the huge grant to Bombardier of over $1 billion over the years. This past year the company made a $400 million profit.

The Saskatchewan Conservative Party is being raked over the coals and being sent to jail for misuse of funds and raising money the wrong way. These are the things that scare people.

Let us look at the changes to the RRSPs for retired people. Now they have changed it from 69 to 71. Reducing taxes is difficult. Because of our confusing, complicated and convoluted Income Tax Act there is a fine line between tax avoidance which is legal, taking advantage of the loopholes, the exemptions and everything that is there, versus tax evasion. I have no respect for those who are guilty of tax evasion. Our bureaucracy in Revenue Canada is huge and costs a lot of money.

Yesterday in the public accounts committee we were reviewing the issue of large corporations. Of the large corporations there are 6,000 plus 200 super huge conglomerates that they audit 100 per cent every year. I asked whether any of them ever got through without having to be reassessed. The answer was not one.

That does not mean these people are trying to evade taxes. It means they are trying to avoid taxes wherever they can legally but there is always a difference of opinion. Five or six people disagree.

There is a reluctance to address debt. I could go on and on, but before my time is up and since I am having a hard time getting everyone's attention I move:

That the House do now adjourn.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.